Public Accounts Committee on June 12th, 2007

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Crupi, yesterday we heard something quite unusual. The comptroller for the RCMP, the chief financial officer, referred to you as a corrupt individual. You did not act on your own. If that assertion is correct, then in fact if we were to extrapolate to the people who were involved with you, would it be fair, first of all, to say that you did not act on your own? If so, do you agree with his statement that you're a corrupt individual?

[Dominic Crupi]

First of all, it's really disturbing to me that people can make comments like this in this committee, which will be published, against which a person cannot defend themselves. I find that very difficult. I don't believe I'm a corrupt person.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Did you act on your own, sir?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Just a minute, Mr. Crupi. We have a point of order here.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Again, I go back to my previous point of order to say that our job is to solicit information. To ask somebody if they think they are a corrupt individual I don't think is an appropriate question for this committee, Mr. Chairman.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

It might be an inappropriate question, but I think Mr. Crupi has raised a valid point. He would like the opportunity to respond to that comment. I think in that sense, fairness would....

[Dominic Crupi]

First of all, Mr. Gauvin's not the only one who has used words I think were inappropriate. “Collusion”, “corrupt”, “fraud” have been used by a number of individuals in this committee towards me, which to me represent personal attacks and have been personal attacks. I've been unable to defend myself because of it.

That being said, I have no prior anything with these companies. I don't know these companies other than business-wise. For Morneau Sobeco, I was pretty much gone when they started doing the work. I wouldn't know if they're doing a good job or a great job. From Great-West Life's perspective, Peter Foley was right: the contract is between Peter Foley and Morneau Sobeco. I did not direct them to hire Morneau Sobeco.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Okay.

Thank you very much, Mr. Crupi.

Now Mr. Christopherson is ready to go. I see his witness has shown up. It's Sergeant Frizzell.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Could we get Staff Sergeant Frizzell sworn in?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Could we get him to come up to the front table and we'll swear him in? We won't start the clock on you until he's sworn in. It will just take 30 seconds or so to do this.

[Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell, Staff Sergeant, Strategic and Operational Support, National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Mike Frizzell, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Thank you, Staff Sergeant Frizzell.

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much, Sergeant. I apologize for not having notified you before. You had to come in at the last minute, and I thank you for doing that. It's appreciated.

I want to take you back to the testimony you gave where you and Chief Superintendent Macaulay made a presentation on the overview. At that meeting, and I'm quoting your remarks, you said:

Mr. Casey sent the e-mail around saying that this meeting was rescheduled. It was Mr. Roy who replied, “Smooth”. My interpretation of that was everyone had bought the reasoning, even though it was untrue.

Further testimony:

That same day a letter was received at NCPC with the proposal from Morneau Sobeco. This is important because you've been told up until now that Great-West Life subcontracted the administration duties to Morneau Sobeco. It's clear from this that Morneau Sobeco made the pitch to NCPC, got approvals, got the thumbs-up to be the administrator, and then later they were concerned about how to make that happen.

Further testimony:

On February 4, 2002, a business case appeared for the insurance outsourcing. It was around this time they realized that if they just went to Morneau Sobeco as the outsourcer, people were going to ask questions.

Further:

The final draft of the business case appears to have been done on March 15, 2002. It contained an evaluation grid that would make it appear as though a proper bid evaluation took place. This evaluation grid showed a bid from Great-West Life and a bid from Morneau Sobeco versus keeping it internal. It showed the costings and, son of a gun, Morneau Sobeco won. When we interviewed the people who were supposed to have been part of the bid, the evaluation committee told us no such process ever took place. This was merely a paper exercise to add legitimacy to the process.

Do you stand by those remarks?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes, I do.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Casey, you had some difficulty answering some questions I placed to you at the last meeting. You've provided some clarification in your opening remarks. I want to take you back to this issue.

You have heard very directly from Staff Sergeant Frizzell, who's sitting beside you. Now, you told me that the process, the bid, was straight up, was legitimate, at arm's length. And those are my words, but you concurred that this had happened. Then, a little earlier today, you answered a question--that Mr. Roy had given you a directive that you were to make sure that Morneau Sobeco won.

I'm very confused, sir. Help me out.

[Pat Casey]

There were three of us to develop the business case. It was Mr. Roy, Ms. Ballantyne, and me. We all sat in a room and we went through the evaluation. It was Mr. Roy who had solicited the information. It was not my mandate to go out and solicit that information.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, you testified that you interviewed some of these participants. Tell us what they said, what you found.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

It may be a play with words here, but.... They may have all sat in a room and put the business case together, but the way the business case appeared was there is the business case: three independent people sat down, looked at it, and said here it is.

The only person asserting that is Mr. Casey. The other two people I interviewed stated that no formal bid evaluation took place.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Casey, would you respond to that, sir?

[Pat Casey]

Yes. The three of us did the evaluation and put the document together.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Roy, which version is closer to what you recall, Mr. Casey's or Staff Sergeant Frizzell's?

[Garry Roy]

I read the business case after reading the minutes of your meeting. I do recognize the options evaluation. So that is true. I did participate in that and in--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Was it a legitimate process, sir?

[Garry Roy]

I'm just telling you, I participated in putting the points beside the value for the in-house, the Great-West Life, and the Morneau Sobeco.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, you're maintaining that it was a legitimate process?