Public Accounts Committee on June 8th, 2006

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It was Mr. Baker, as he made clear.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay. There was a decision to enter these arrangements with the Centra group, to enter into these agreements even though the legal opinion said they hadn't received Treasury Board approval--they weren't a debt, they weren't a liability, they weren't quantum meruit; they were all these different things. Who was responsible for those decisions to enter into those arrangements with Centra?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

You're talking now about the contract?

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

The agreement in principle in July of 2003 and the amendment that came later on in that year confirming that arrangement--who was responsible for that decision?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I assume that was a combination of Public Works and the Canada Firearms Centre, but perhaps Public Works could speak to that.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Shearer, would you agree with me that at that point, when those undertakings and agreements were made, Parliament had not approved those expenditures--yes or no?

[John Shearer]

Parliament had not approved those expenditures at that point in time, but I think the agreement needs further clarification for the committee, and at that point I'll turn to my colleague.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's okay. I have a few other questions I want to get to here.

On February 3 that year there was a legal opinion that came to Treasury Board on interpreting section 33. It was abundantly clear on the question raised that there wasn't any discretion and that these liabilities had to be booked. That was point two in that legal opinion. Then, at warp speed--you remove them faster than Wal-Mart at that point, Madam Bloodworth--you had another lawyer commissioned on February 5 with a timeline. The lawyer said he needed the opinion at noon the next day. I was a lawyer too, and you've been a lawyer. To get a legal opinion on something as complex as this and to make it a 24-hour deadline, there must have been one huge crisis cooking around in your department to move it a this super-Wal-Mart speed. What was the crisis at that point? Was it the first legal opinion that you got from the Treasury Board that said this was not right, and you had to book that and you were rejecting that legal opinion and had to find another one?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I wasn't involved in any crisis, but the determination of the timing was the requirement that if we were going to require sups, they had to be determined in the next few days. I don't know what the deadline was, but it was something in the first week or ten days of February. I did not see the opinion of the Treasury Board at the time. In fact, I think it's pretty clear when you read it that he uses debt and liability interchangeably. He doesn't answer the question of whether it's a debt or a liability.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

There was sure a lot of pressure put on him to get this opinion done in a hurry. He had been talking to you.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No, he had not.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Well, he said he had to have it back in 24 hours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Fitzpatrick, I know we're looking for concise and brief answers, but what you're saying doesn't form part of the record. You have to allow the witness to give an answer.

Mrs. Bloodworth.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I'm not sure who you're asking about at the moment, Mr. Fitzpatrick. Are you talking about Mr. Pigeon?

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You asked him for the legal opinion.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No, I asked the Deputy Minister of Justice, who identified Mr. Pigeon as a senior lawyer with commercial law experience, which is what I had asked for. Yes, it's true, Mr. Pigeon had to act quickly, because if we did not make a decision in that time.... We needed to have all the facts that week or else the time period would have gone by.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'll just note for the record that on the opinion from Mr. Pigeon, Mr. Wiersema was not one of the clients to receive a copy of that. This is just to be noted.

The other point I want to make on this matter as well is that in the previous committee it was made clear with Public Works officials dealing with leasing that there was nothing unusual about discussing issues at the ministerial level with political ministers--Mr. Goodale and the junior minister in Quebec. These things were regularly discussed.

Are you saying that throughout this period of time--with this problem with the Centra group, and no debt, no liability, but here they're doing all this work, and this is going on underneath the surface--the political minister in charge of that department was not aware of these problems?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I think she was well aware, because she was informed by Mr. Baker, and I think she said that. My answer to the question was that I received no direction from the political level or anyone else to seek a legal opinion. That was my decision. That was what I was answering.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Why wouldn't we just resolve the issue by booking it against appropriations and resolving the whole matter?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Because there was an option not to do that, which Mr. Baker chose, and I agree with him.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

But you let down section 53 of the Constitution that says Parliament is supposed to approve appropriations. You should know that as a lawyer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're going to move to Mr. Christopherson for eight minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You'll recall that the reason we had the special briefing was because of the complexity of this and to save time. I was not in the capital at the time we had the meeting. It was substituted and my sub is not able to be here. I'm not going to take up the time to go back to rudimentary questions that would have already been covered, but I also don't want the time to be lost, so in the non-partisan spirit with which we try to operate, I'd like to defer the balance of my eight minutes to my friend, Mr. Williams, with your approval.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It's approved. That's very generous of you, Mr. Christopherson. I hope that continues in life.

Mr. Williams, you have seven minutes and eighteen seconds.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also thank my colleague and friend, Mr. Christopherson, for his generosity.

Now turning to the witnesses, Ms. Bloodworth, you chaired an interdepartmental meeting, because that's what Mr. Pigeon says—he is responding to you—an interdepartmental meeting, chaired by you on Thursday, February 5, 2004.

Then, Mr. Judd, you became involved. Were you at the meeting, Mr. Judd?