Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 13th, 2007

[Sheila Fraser]

We are aware, Mr. Chair, that these concerns have been raised. From what we can tell, it would appear to be a difference in who is counted in the census. For example, temporary workers would not be counted as permanent residents.

So there could be definitional differences like that between the census takers and then the population that may actually be there at a point in time. This might be something that would be worth investigating with Statistics Canada themselves.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

But let's say you had 5,000 people move into the community of Saskatoon in the last six months. Would Statistics Canada have the wherewithal to track these people and have that information made available?

[Sheila Fraser]

I would doubt that. The census is at a point in time. This one was in 2006. If there was a large movement of population, it would not be reflected in that census.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

So they may be well advised to find a better system to track this sort of problem than rely on Statistics Canada data.

[Sheila Fraser]

Or discussions, obviously, with the departments responsible for transfers of funds, if there is a significant difference like that.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Right.

Now I have the pleasure of turning the rest of my time over to my colleague John Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Now, which Williams is that you're talking about?

Anyway, Madam Auditor General, congratulations on another report. I see this is your seventh, so seven down, three to go. It's good that you keep bringing these things to our attention and to the attention of the general public, because while we all know that the federal government tries, they don't always succeed.

I liked your little comment that it's really about managing, that it's not just about numbers and spending dollars but also managing and achieving results. Sometimes the things you bring to our attention really do shock us, as far as Canadians are concerned.

I'm looking at paragraph 4.56 of the chapter regarding military health care, where you say, “We surveyed military physicians, nurses, medical technicians, and physician assistants and found that few take advantage of the program”, that program being the additional upgrading of education, “although it is mandatory”, your word, “because they believe they cannot be spared from their regular duties”. Then you go on to give certain percentages--that, for example, only 6% had completed the program's requirements.

You're a professional, I'm a professional, many other people are professionals. We're into lifelong learning nowadays. In virtually every profession, in order to maintain your professional status you have to demonstrate ongoing, lifelong learning, maintaining your skills. What is going on here that the federal government doesn't even bother to ensure that the people who are providing professional services aren't maintaining their professional accreditation, their skills, training, or whatever?

[Sheila Fraser]

I agree with you that this is a serious issue. Again, as we say in paragraph 4.59, our recommendation is that the department should have the information necessary to ensure that people are certified and licensed and up to date with their skills.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But they're providing these services to people. And if people go to the dentist--or the doctor, or the lawyer, or the accountant, or whomever--they want to have some reassurance that this person, because they have the designation or the letters behind their name, meets the criteria.

I guess the government doesn't care. We're back to the fact that it's really about managing.

[Sheila Fraser]

It's about managing, yes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That's right.

I'll move on to the main points regarding technical training and learning at the Canada Revenue Agency. As you say in here, “Senior employees are retiring at an increasing rate, taking with them their knowledge and their expertise.” This is a problem right across the board for the federal government.

Are you aware of whether the federal government has a real plan in place regarding baby boomers retiring and senior executives being thinned out at a dramatic rate over the next ten years? Have they addressed the problem to ensure that they can be on top of it?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, based on the audit work we have done in this area--for example, the report we had on Foreign Affairs in the spring and the report we have here on one of the small agencies--there are none. There are no specific plans in place certainly in those agencies, and I'm not aware of any plan across government.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So it's really about the managing.

Continuing on about the managing, Indian Affairs has always seemed to me to be at the bottom of the heap when it comes to managing. I'm looking at paragraph 3.23, where it says, “Although 23 years have elapsed since the Agreement came into existence, INAC has not resolved this error.”

The error is that they handed over some land that they shouldn't have handed over, and 23 years later they haven't fixed the problem. So they handed over land that they shouldn't have handed over and now it's in arbitration. They're trying to get it back.

What is the problem? If they shouldn't have handed it over, why didn't they just get it back?

Mr. Campbell?

[Ronnie Campbell]

They handed it over, Mr. Chairman, and then it was handed over. Now they have to get it back, and they've signed an agreement. They need to come out with something that's acceptable to all the parties. Not that it would excuse them for not doing it in 23 years.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

They handed over half a runway in Sachs Harbour. Half the runway?

[Ronnie Campbell]

It's only a portion of the runway.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Was that down the middle, or just at one end?

[Ronnie Campbell]

I can tell you it's just at one end.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So you have to pull up short when you land on the runway. What is going on when the Auditor General says it's really about the managing? What is your assessment of the quality of management when after 23 years they haven't even bothered to get the issue fixed?

[Ronnie Campbell]

As the Auditor General pointed out, I think a lot of energy goes into the negotiation and the signing of those agreements, and then they don't sustain that effort through to the completion of their obligations.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I think, Madam Auditor, you should have a little sign up in your office that says “It's really about the managing”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

That concludes the round. We don't really have much time left. We have to be out of here at 11 o'clock anyway. I'm going to ask the auditor if she has any concluding remarks.

[Sheila Fraser]

I would just like to thank the committee and its members for their interest in the report.

I look forward to hearings at which time these matters can be discussed at greater length.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Just before we adjourn the meeting, I want to point out a couple of things. We're going to meet again on Thursday. We were hoping that we would normally deal with the public accounts on Thursday. Unfortunately, we are not able to because the acting Comptroller General is not available on that date. That will have to be pushed to next week. So this Thursday we will be dealing with reports and trying to clean up some of the reports that we're dealing with.

Again, I'm asking the steering committee to wait around for a minute just to try to establish a meeting date. That's the only purpose of the meeting.

I want to thank the auditor general. She's hosting a dinner at 6:30 tonight at her office for the members of the committee. So I certainly want to thank her for that.

If there's nothing further to be brought before the meeting, I will declare the meeting adjourned.