Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd like to commence the meeting.

I want to extend to everyone a very warm welcome to today's meeting. Bienvenue à tous.

This meeting, colleagues, is called pursuant to Standing Order 108, chapter 7, “Acquisition of Leased Office Space”, in the May 2006 report of the Auditor General of Canada, referred to the committee on May 16, 2006.

We have before us two witnesses. From now until 12 o'clock we have the Honourable Alfonso Gagliano, former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, and from 12 to 1 we have the Honourable Ralph Goodale, who, at a later time, was also a former Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

I want to extend to you, Mr. Gagliano, a welcome to the committee. Can you hear me okay? Is the technology working?

[Alfonso Gagliano, As an Individual]

Yes, sir, I can hear you perfectly well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

One of the members is asking if you can see us.

[Alfonso Gagliano]

I can see you and the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

What I'm going to do is ask Mr. Gagliano if he has an opening statement. Then we are going to have one round of eight minutes each, so I urge members, if you want other caucus members to speak, to share your eight minutes. The Liberals have two eight-minute segments, the Conservatives have two, and the NDP and Bloc each have one.

Mr. Gagliano, have you any opening comments or a statement?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No, sir. I have no statement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You have no statement. Thank you very much.

The first round belongs to the Liberal Party, and the only Liberal member I see present is Mr. Hubbard.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, Mr. Gagliano, thanks for participating in our inquiry. We've been involved with this for some time.

Have you followed some of the evidence, some of the information the committee has already dealt with? Or, since you are quite a distance from us, have you not been able to get the information we have?

On the last day we heard from the deputy minister, Madam Cochrane. Are you familiar with the information she gave to this committee?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Yes. Just this morning, on arriving here, I received a copy of the blues from the meeting, and I read them, so I am familiar with what she said.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

When you looked at the information she offered and the questions that were asked, did you think of any information to offer this committee? Do you have any different points of view?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No. Really, I found it a little bit strange that I was called to this committee. I left the department in January 2002, while the tendering process was going on, so I'm not familiar whatsoever with what took place after I left the department.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

During the tendering process, Madam Cochrane was the deputy, and as the minister, I suppose, being from Montreal, you might have seen an ad in the paper or on a website for office space. Was anything brought to your attention during that time in terms of the tenants that were there or the different groups that might be competing in that open bid to provide space for the group?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No. That was the first time, and the only time, on July 31, I believe, that I received a memo from the then-deputy minister, Janice Cochrane, informing me that the department was proceeding to go to tender to acquire space for Canada Economic Development. That was an information memo. I had no comments. They proceeded, and that was the last time and the first time I heard of it.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

With the apparent competing bids that were offered to the department, it appeared that a new location was chosen originally and of course was tendered for by Public Works and Government Services.

Were you aware of any conflict between landlords in the Montreal area over the bidding process?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No, sir.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

With the group that did get the bid, Place Bonaventure, are you familiar with the owners of that complex?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Not at all. The only thing I knew about Place Bonaventure was that Canada Lands, a crown corporation, used to have an interest in that building and sold it before this tendering process. I think they sold their interest a couple of years before. As you recall, I was then the minister responsible for Canada Lands. That's my only link to Place Bonaventure. I didn't know who bought it and who the other owners were.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

It appeared that when the tender was complete at Place Bonaventure, the group was to move, and observations were raised that maybe that group, the CED, would not be moving or did not want to move.

Were you involved with any information that led you, as minister, to believe the CED group did not want to move from Place Victoria to another location?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No, sir, I had no information to that effect.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

The deputy indicated yesterday, or Tuesday, that probably between 500 and 700 leases were consummated each year. Would this lease have drawn any more attention to you, as minister, than some of the other 500?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

To my recollection, no. The only involvement I had was in receiving and reading a memo from the deputy minister on July 31 that they were proceeding according to the guidelines, and that's it.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

The information we have is that after the awarding of the lease, a letter was drawn up from the minister at the time, Claude Drouin, indicating some concerns he had from the CED group that maybe they didn't want to move.

At that time, where were you in terms of the cabinet? I have trouble remembering all these dates, but there was a change in ministers.

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Yes. I was in Denmark--Copenhagen, exactly. I had resigned as the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and a member of the House of Commons on January 15, 2002. In the middle of February I went to take my post as the Canadian ambassador to Denmark. I was there for two years.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

With this--

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Far away from Ottawa, sir.