Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2008

[Alfonso Gagliano]

I don't know. I asked him. He has no recollection. We're talking 2001--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Which is it? I'm sorry, I am confused. There is something I'm missing. On the one hand you're saying he's the guy we should ask and on the other hand you're saying he doesn't have any recollection. That doesn't help.

[Alfonso Gagliano]

I'm sorry, sir. You asked me which person. The only person that I see through the document with his name in here is him, but I called him and he has no recollection.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How convenient. How convenient.

Were you aware, Mr. Gagliano, of a major uprising in the department from the staff about having to move?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

It was not my department. I had an office staff for my department that I had to worry about. Somebody else had to worry about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Holland, for eight minutes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I sat through the last meeting and I kept waiting in the last meeting to find out why the witnesses who were called, were called. I figured there must have been some reason they were--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Do you want to pursue a question?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

That's what I'm doing, Chair. I'm trying to set context here. The fact is, I waited through all of that meeting to try to figure out why those witnesses were called, and we wasted all of that time because they had nothing to offer. So we wasted one meeting. I came in today and I've listened to the first round of questions. I'm trying to figure out why Mr. Gagliano is here and I'm left with the same problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Proceed with your questions, Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I am going to do this, Chair, and say that he has said that he has not been involved with the file. We have had no information from him. All of the questions that have been asked have been meandering and going nowhere. The only thing we've been left with is that Jean-Marc Bard should be appearing before the committee.

Well, it's very nice to have two meetings and that's essentially what we get out of them. I think it's an incredible waste of money. It's been an incredible waste of time.

Mr. Gagliano, I apologize that you have been brought before the committee for no reason.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Poilievre, on a point of order.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm done. I'm turning it over to Mr. Hubbard, because if he has questions, I don't. This is a farce.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I think for Mr. Holland to suggest that Mr. Gagliano is not answering any of the questions or providing any of the information that he knows and then not to ask any questions himself is really out of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That's not the way I heard it.

Mr. Hubbard, you have six minutes and 48 seconds.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

First of all, that wasn't a point of order, and secondly, it was not a point. My point is not that he didn't--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Hubbard, you have six minutes and 43 seconds.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

We seem now to have got to this point about h-o-l-d, which in English spells hold. I haven't had much experience with leasing and being a landlord, but in terms of hold, there are different reasons why properties or tenders can be put on hold.

Mr. Gagliano, have you seen other bidding processes that were put on hold for a period of time?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Let me be clear here. It is different here from a tendering process. Once the tender process goes public, you cannot touch it any more. It is like the train that has left the station and you have to go to the end. There might be modifications, amendments, and there is a process to deal with that, but before you take the final step to go publicly through advertisements, through letters, to interested parties and say that's what we are looking for, do you have anything to offer, there is a process of discussion, preparation, and so on. There are different meetings and there are documents at different levels.

At first the client department would be the Department of Public Works and then the original, the local. There are different people who have a say, have to look, and in this case even the minister's office has to be informed, and they asked questions. So there might be some delay only in that period of the discussions. Once the final decision of July 31 is made when the deputy minister informs the minister that the process is going ahead, that's it, hands off, and let the process do its job.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Mr. Poilievre seems to think the hold was put on for political reasons. It also could have been put on because the tenant was not satisfied with the package as it was prepared. Would that be a fact?

[Alfonso Gagliano]

No, definitely not.

I would like to remind not only you but the committee that all the bureaucrats, all the officials, appeared before you. From the bottom up--from the director of the project to the assistant deputy minister--all said that there was no indifference from my office or on my part.

I can assure you no one, nobody.... I don't even know today. Besides that I read in 2004 that Mr. Saputo acquired an interest in Place Victoria, I don't know who the owners are, either of Place Victoria, Place Bonaventure, or any other buildings. It's not my business.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Mr. Chair, in terms of this hold, which seems to be a major factor in our discussion this morning, the witness then is not able to give us any reason, any evidence, or even who or for what reason the hold was put on that file for a period of time. Why was it--

[Alfonso Gagliano]

Again, I have to say that I have a problem with the word “hold” or “halt”, because it implies that there was a stop. I understood when I went through the document that it was not a stop, and the sense was don't go public yet because we need more information.

But even Mr. Arès said at the committee that he was asked by Jean-Marc Bard to continue doing the analysis and the studies. I think we might be walking a very fine line in terms of the word “hold” or “halt”. But again, I'm sure that if what happened in April 2002 hadn't happened, probably there wouldn't have been any questions about what happened in July 2001.