Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was space.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
When the change was made, certainly from your distance in Copenhagen, you were not involved with any change in occupation or occupancy in terms of the two real estate companies.
As an Individual
The first time I found out about this is about a month, or a month and a half ago, when I read on the Internet in La Presse that the committee was contemplating calling me back. I asked, what for? I was no longer the minister. Anyway, here I am.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I don't think this witness has any information that would be of benefit to us. It would be nice this morning to be in Florida, or wherever, when we had a foot of snow yesterday and a lot of cold weather this morning.
Thank you for giving your time to come to the committee.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Was this a suggestion by Mr. Hubbard to move the committee to Florida?
Liberal
Liberal
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You were wondering why the committee wanted to meet with you. It is because you were Minister of Public Works and Government Services for five years and we are having trouble understanding how decisions are made within that department, particularly regarding the leasing of office space at Place Victoria and at Place Bonaventure. We have had a few meetings on this issue. You may have a good idea of the ties that bind Public Works and Government Services Canada with another department, the Economic Development Agency of Canada. You were there long enough.
Two days ago, we heard from Ms. Janice Cochrane, who was your deputy minister and also served as deputy minister to those who followed you. She was telling us that the lease that was signed with Place Victoria was, in her opinion, a routine lease. Do you agree with that statement? Judging from your own experience, was it really a routine lease?
As an Individual
First of all, I was not there, I do not have all the facts. I left the department on January 15, 2002, and I believe that this happened in April 2002, therefore three months after my departure. It is obviously an unusual case. In fact, if my memory serves me well and if the documents that I read over the last few days are correct, a call for tenders was launched in February 2001 and the bids were open, I believe, a week after I left, at the end of January 2002. The winning bid was announced and the bidder was informed. As I was saying when I was there, it is a little late in the process to start changing your mind.
However, Ms. Cochrane said that they did an analysis, after having received the request from the new Minister of Economic Development Canada, and they decided that it was possible. I do not have the data from that analysis, I was no longer there. I was not the one who made the decision, therefore I cannot comment. You'll understand that it is a hypothetical question for me.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
After Ms. Cochrane told us that it was a routine lease, I told her that the fact that two different premises had been rented for the same department did not appear to be routine to me. Was there ever such a situation when you were the minister?
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
After having told us that it was a routine lease, Ms. Cochrane, in answer to my questions, told us that we were right and that it was not a routine situation. The department—of which you were minister for five years—had developed the operating rules under which, when a lease was up, rather than negotiating directly with the landlord where the department was located, the department had to launch a call for tenders.
Were these new rules enacted or adopted under your watch?
As an Individual
Rules are constantly being refined. I wouldn't want to mislead you. I think that some rules were in place before I came to the department. Improvements are made every year. I must say that department officials met with me on a number of occasions, under other circumstances, asking me to choose direct negotiations rather than a publicly advertised tendering process. In the case at hand, the deputy minister's memo of July 31 that I have before me—and I would like to thank the committee and Public Works and Government Services Canada for having provided me with these documents so that I could prepare my appearance before you today—clearly states that an analysis was conducted and it showed that it would be more cost-effective for the government to go to tender. The decision was made, and the call for tenders was conducted according to the rules and procedures. An ethics advisor even reviewed the whole process, and the lease was awarded to the lowest bidder.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You said that this didn't happen when you were minister, but would you have accepted, during your tenure, that Public Works and Government Services Canada sign two leases, with two different companies, for the same department?
As an Individual
I repeat that I was not there when the deputy minister presented the case analysis that established whether that was possible or not. Without knowing all the facts, I would say no, but I cannot give you a categorical answer because I do not know the gist of the analysis. According to Ms. Cochrane's testimony, she said that the analysis showed that it was possible because there were other tenants who needed space and—
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
However, that is not what the Auditor General said.
As an Individual
I know. I am trying to explain Ms. Cochrane's recommendation to Minister Goodale. I was not the minister. If she had made the same recommendation to me, would I have accepted? I do not know because, as I told you, this is all hypothetical, and you know better than me that, in politics, giving hypothetical answers is going down a quite slippery slope.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Crête will use my remaining time to ask the next question.
Bloc
Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Good morning, Mr. Gagliano.
You were minister until January 2002, but we were told that, on December 13, 2001, your office had requested information on all the leases in the greater Montreal area, among others. At the time, were you made aware of that request and the reason why it had been made?
As an Individual
I was not informed of that request, as I told you, but from the time when I became political minister or minister responsible for Quebec, we received many information requests. We decided to look at that more closely, that is to obtain information from our officials. My office had regular meetings with officials to obtain the information in order to respond to queries sent to us, whether from members, entrepreneurs or people concerned. That explains those requests.
Bloc
Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you.
At any given time when you were minister, did you hear questions being raised about the move, on whether it was relevant or not? While you were minister, did you receive such information, whether orally or in writing, or did you discuss the issue?
