Evidence of meeting #21 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreements.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Michael Wernick  Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Terry Sewell  Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michel Roy  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Claims and Indian Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

I can provide whatever documentation you ask for. We're trying to move forward. We have a settlement with Transport Canada on the airport strip in question. We think we have a tentative settlement with Parks Canada.

I think part of the issue, and I talked to the Senate committee about that, is that it's 100% of Terry's job to chase the implementation of these obligations. For somebody in Parks Canada, it's one of many files they deal with. We have a challenge getting this up the priority list of other organizations. I spoke to the Senate quite candidly about this. That's the gap in the accountability regime, really.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Hubbard.

Monsieur Laforest.

March 11th, 2008 / 11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first question is for Mr. Campbell.

The Office of the Auditor General has assessed this agreement. At the time of the audit, the agreement was 23 years old. You found that the government had not met a number of its obligations. Such an agreement gives me the impression that it is like a shell corporation. On the other hand, you said several times that some obligations had been met.

Could you give us a general idea of the percentage of obligations that have been met by the department? Would it be 20%, 30%, 40% or some other figure? I know that you probably did not assess things in that manner, but I would like to have some idea.

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Ronnie Campbell

That is a challenging question. I'll try to answer it in a couple of ways.

I think the department was more successful in implementing what you might call transactional obligations, one-off obligations--for example, making the payments, transferring most of the land, and implementing obligations that were one-time events. I think there was much more difficulty in implementing obligations that required long-term ongoing attention. That's probably the clearest distinction I can make between those that were implemented and those that weren't.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

In the end, you are saying that it is really an issue of the level of commitment. What was to be done systematically, when it was easy, was done. But the long term obligations, the whole issue of the future of people and measures that need to be monitored, that is much more difficult.

Mr. Wernick, you are a deputy minister. I find it really disheartening to read a report like this. It was 24 years ago, and when the audit was done, that was 23 years back. Moreover, an audit from the Auditor General's office was required for this update.

Were there any assessments done of these measures within the department, without the Auditor General being involved? What credibility do you think you have with the aboriginal people, those who negotiated the agreements? I take note of Mr. Campbell's answer. As far as any action that will be taken in the future, the aboriginal people may think that they can count on short-term measures, such as signing a one-time agreement or selling lands, but as for the rest of it, where you have not fulfilled your commitments, how will they be able to count on the department to sign an agreement in good faith?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

Thank you for that question. As I said at the outset, the fact that there are differences between certain provisions or measures in the agreement troubles me greatly because that undermines our credibility at the negotiating table with other aboriginal groups. Having said that, we are making progress. We have just signed two treaties in British Columbia and we have just settled claims with the Inuit in Northern Quebec, and so on.

As I tried to explain, following the signature and the celebration of a treaty there is a relationship between the government and the aboriginal group that begins. As Mr. Campbell said, most of the obligations are ongoing, and there are unresolved issues in terms of financing. It is clear that we have not done our work with certain land exchanges, that I admit. We are now trying to complete as many transactions as possible. As Mr. Campbell explained, the agreement involves approximately 80 obligations in different categories. Two of them have been identified as deficiencies in terms of transactions, and there are outstanding disagreements on two very important issues: acquisition policy and economic development. We are trying to make progress.

To answer your question, I would say that yes, we do audits and evaluations internally, and from time to time, the Auditor General's office helps us. We appreciate it because it is an accountability measure. There are 21 agreements. Those that were signed at the beginning of the cycle, such as the James Bay and Iqaluit agreements, do not have the same implementation structure. We have learned lessons from the past, and the new treaties include implementation and dispute resolution measures that are much more robust.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I am not sure that you fully answered the question I posed. The Office of the Auditor General has carried out an audit, but had you not already done some kind of internal audit? It makes me wonder. This is after all a 23-year old agreement. The Auditor General has called you to order, and you admit having made mistakes. You are planning to implement a better process with future agreements, but is that enough to regain your credibility in the eyes of the first nations who will sign them?

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michael Wernick

That is a question you will have to ask the aboriginal groups. We are working closely with the coalition that represents all of these groups. I met with these people last December. We are trying to pursue an implementation policy together. We are complying with all of the obligations in each of our agreements. We are trying to be as transparent as possible to you, parliamentarians, as well as to aboriginal groups.

On the other hand, I cannot accept that the agreement or the implementation be characterized as an empty shell. It is much more than that. Generally speaking, the agreement is a real success for the Canadian government and the people of that region. The list that Mr. Campbell quoted includes very important provisions for the Inuvialuit people.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Merci, Monsieur Laforest.

Mr. Williams, for seven minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, being a replacement on this committee, I not sure of the order we follow here.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

The order is Liberal, Bloc, Conservative, NDP. So you're up right after Mr. Williams.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

The erroneous transfer of this land at the airport seems to be quite egregious. You've had 23 years to look after this. You were transferring land and you transferred the wrong land. I don't really need to know how it happened—gross incompetence and negligence, no doubt, but that's by the way.

It seems that you're now having to pay to get the land back. Am I right in saying that?

11:35 a.m.

Terry Sewell Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

No. Indeed, what's happened is that the Government of the Northwest Territories has reached an arrangement with the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation on access requirements over Inuvialuit lands, so there hasn't been a requirement to buy or lease back lands transferred to the Inuvialuit, to which the Government of the Northwest Territories requires continuing access—for instance, sewage lagoons, and those sorts of structures.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

So they've been nice to us and allowed us to use the property they now own, which they shouldn't have got in the first place, because we gave it to them erroneously. So now they're being nice guys and letting us use it.

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Terry Sewell

Well, an arrangement has been reached between the Inuvialuit and the Government of the Northwest Territories.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Does that arrangement include any value that we transfer to them in land, cash, or any other kind of value?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Terry Sewell

I don't know the exact details of the arrangement. I was just advised that they have come to a happy conclusion on how to ensure access, because the Inuvialuit have an interest in there being access to those lands as well, because it's for community facilities, such as lagoons, and those sorts of structures, which are of interest of course to the Inuvialuit living in the same communities. So an arrangement has been reached that is mutually beneficial.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Chairman, we're really getting obfuscation today.

My question was, is value being transferred to the first nation in return for our being able to use this property they now own, but which they shouldn't own in the first place?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Terry Sewell

Not from the federal government.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

By anybody?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Terry Sewell

I suspect there are financial arrangements between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Inuvialuit, yes.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

And for how much?

11:35 a.m.

Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Terry Sewell

I don't know the details.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Can you find that out?