Public Accounts Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Raymond Kunze]

We did conduct interviews largely with producer organizations, and the representatives from those organizations were producers themselves as well. So yes, we did.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, but no individual producers outside of those organizations...?

[Raymond Kunze]

No, we always tried to deal directly through groups.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. It just strikes me as odd that with the complexity you began to discover, you didn't dig into that.

Madam Baltacioglu, are you going to do some follow-up with users regarding getting some very clear data on whether they see now the application process as far more effective for them? Are you going to report that in your DPR?

[Nada Semaan]

We are actually about to start a review of the one-page application form to see if it did help and if it made it a lot easier. In addition, we did do a cross-comparative survey across all of our programs, including the CAIS program last year, to ask producers exactly how they found their service. We're doing all the analysis and we're incorporating that as part of our continuous improvement process to ensure we do that.

I would add that this entire business risk management suite, especially the redesigned AgriStability and AgriInvest, was actually created by an industry-led task team, with us. So while everybody understood a lot of the complexity, producers insisted that inventories and things that made it complex was what their day-to-day business was, and they did not want their program to be less responsive. So they asked us to create more automated tools to deal with the responsiveness, but to make sure that the responsiveness, whether it be structural change, inventory, or grade class of the product, was clearly still left inside.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, but you're going to report that data in your report.

[Nada Semaan]

Absolutely.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Here's the situation. Unlike Mr. Christopherson, I have a lot of agriculture in my riding, everything from llama farms to oilseed and grain, and I'm the one who has to field the complaints when they come in and say, “You know, this CAIS program has cost me a fortune,” or “It's too complex,” or “It doesn't meet my requirements because my margins are too high or too low.” So I hope we're going to get some clear data on that so we can feed that back to the users themselves.

While I'm on that, was part of the improvement the reduction of these 1,500 different codes?

[Nada Semaan]

Unfortunately, no, the benchmark processing units are basically what distinguish the cost of the various types, whether it be grain or feedstock, and so they are very specific to the type of products. Because agriculture has such a wide band of products, those identify the prices, and the prices do differ.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Do you know what the take-up has been on, as you mentioned, “My Account” on the Internet? How many farmers are actually using that?

[Nada Semaan]

I'm sorry. I should have brought the statistics. I didn't bring them directly with me.

As the deputy minister said, the take-up in terms of taking a look at the program online is not as much as we had hoped, exactly because of what the honourable member had mentioned in terms of bandwidth issues. However, we are making the solutions, such as the calculator, available. A lot of their accountants use those and review them as well, but also they're available for our staff, to help them provide service more quickly over the phone.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I want to conclude, because I always have this hourglass feeling when my time is slipping away.

I think you've heard very clearly from this committee our displeasure at the fact that not only was there a conflict of interest, but the due diligence wasn't done to be able to be transparent that everything possible had been investigated to make sure there was no further complication in the conflict. I hope you're going to take the advice of my colleague Mr. Williams very seriously about auditing every one of those, so that it's very clear to the public that it is looked after.

Also, I hope you're going to make sure we get the data on the take-up of the individual programs as well, and probably some more information in our office, so that we can point producers to the automated process so they can actually take advantage of it.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Absolutely, sir. We will provide that as well. If you would like, we can give a list of all the improvements that have been made and what's available to help the producers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Christopherson, you have up to four minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Going back to paragraph 4.97, which is the issue of the conflict of interest, I know we're at risk of beating a dead horse here, but this thing still rankles. We deal with a lot of these kinds of things, so we do have some comparisons and contexts to put these in.

The fact that it happened at all is troubling. The fact that it was reported and nobody did anything is doubly troubling.

I'm not looking for names, but I am looking for positions. Who would have been the person who received the report? What was their title? Where were they in the scheme of things as to who would have heard that there were people moonlighting?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It would have been in the conflict of interest office, under the corporate section of the department.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Pardon? The report or the complaint went to the conflict of interest—

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It wasn't a complaint. Basically, in their conflict of interest disclosure documents, they had said they were filling out forms as an outside economic activity. It went to the conflict of interest office.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And they didn't do anything about it initially?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

That's my understanding.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And what was done about that?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

The conflict of interest office, as of the audit, has a database of everybody who declares that they have a conflict of interest. It is being followed up with the management, and we're tracking in terms of making sure the actions are taken.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry. There has to be a piece I'm missing. It can't be what I'm getting right now.

What I'm getting is that the activity was going on, it was disclosed within the conflict of interest department or area, and they did nothing about it initially until the auditors came in and said, “Where's the follow-up on this?”

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

That's what the Auditor General's report—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And then I asked what was done about it. I'd like to know what we did about staff people, managers, who were responsible for this sort of thing. What happened to them?