Public Accounts Committee on April 1st, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'll respond to that. The committee decided that it would be better to break it down to deal with different components. There are five witnesses approved by the motion approved by this committee, so we have to deal with that issue. The committee decided to have one hour for the accounting officer from the Department of Finance and the Secretary of the Treasury Board. The second hour would be for Mr. MacPhie and Ms. Mintz, and the third hour would be to allow the minister to come alone at the end of the other two hours. We felt that it would flow a lot better than having all five here at the same time.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, I just have to reiterate my opposition to this being all over the map, Mr. Chairman. We have two-hour meetings. Other people have conflicts and other meetings to attend and all this stuff. You know what I think about bringing in ministers. I think it's highly inappropriate for the public accounts committee.

Anyway, moving on to the next point here, we're now going to be looking at the DND documents found in the garbage can at a restaurant. Who's making a report on this? What are we going to do here? Is this an investigation? We're not an investigative committee. We deal with political accountability. Who are we bringing in, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, we haven't decided that yet, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, until you decide, I'm going to withhold my approval on this particular section, section 7, because I think we're off down some--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, let me comment. If I can summarize the discussions at the meeting, we had a meeting on that particular chapter, subsequent to the meeting on withholding of government information.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, no, I'm talking about section 7, about those documents in a garbage bin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

“Safeguarding Government Information and Assets in Contracting” was the name of the chapter, and subsequent to the meeting, there were media reports that suggested—I don't want to make any statements based entirely on media reports—that the design plans for the proposed new government building on counterterrorism were found in the garbage. Again, we don't know the details. It was felt by the steering committee that it would be better to perhaps have another go-round explaining how that possibly could have happened, because at the meeting there were certainly statements that this would never happen.

Again, we also have received, Mr. Williams, some information that one of the defence witnesses...I don't want to use the word “misspoke”, but there may be some—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

He has additional information to provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Additional information to provide. Thank you very much.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, I brought it forward. If we didn't have our report in front of us that we're about to do.... We did a hearing on that. You were there, John. Remember North Bay, the whole thing. One of the things that struck me was in the media report, the contractor saying, “We weren't designated as a secure entity”, and that spoke directly to the issue we were dealing with.

I was hoping we could find out about some of the assurances we were given that this sort of thing would be corrected. This would be a test for us as to whether or not it's really happening. The request was for one hearing, to have a go-round on that, to put the test to the assurances they've given us. There's the possibility, as you well know, that they tell us everything's fine, and lo, it's not.

It was very much those issues about whether there was a risk assessment done, whether it was designated as a secure site. If so, were the proper—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

The garbage bin is a secure site.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No...well, you just made the rest of the argument, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Fitzpatrick.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes, it's just an observation.

We've had some meetings. It's my personal point of view that when we've had a set of witnesses here with no representative from the Auditor General's office, it seems to me it cuts a lot of slack for the witnesses not to have somebody from the auditor's office. There is a reality check that has to take place on some of these things, and not having the Auditor General here is wrong, as far as I'm concerned. We should also have a representative from the Auditor General. We have a situation on Thursday that, it seems to me, is in that category again. I think it's good to have the objective point of view of the auditor's office at the committee meetings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

On this particular chapter, there was a difference of opinion between the Auditor General and the representatives from DND. The Auditor General was saying there were serious security lapses, and DND was saying there weren't. The Auditor General was saying there were financial consequences because of those security lapses, and the department officials were saying no, there weren't, as a consequence of that.

The Auditor General's said she would provide us with additional details supporting her point of view. Have those come to the committee? You had referenced that someone from DND had perhaps misspoken. Is it on this particular issue that the official had misspoken?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, I didn't use the word “misspoken”, but additional information or clarification of information.

I'm going to ask the clerk to respond.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Justin Vaive]

I'll verify to see if we have received anything from the Auditor General's office. We did get some correspondence from them over the Easter break. I just don't know off the top of my head if it was on that specific topic or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I believe it was.

[The Clerk]

I think it may very well have been, so we got something from them fairly recently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Are there any other interventions?

Okay, I'll put the question. The minutes as amended have been circulated. Are all in favour of their adoption?

I guess, though, I should have a mover for the minutes. So moved by Mr. Christopherson.

All in favour of their adoption, please raise your hand. Contrary minded?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I would have made an amendment, Mr. Chairman, to remove the minister's name, but I thought it wouldn't carry. I really take exception to bringing ministers to the public accounts committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, that was already discussed.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I know it was. That's why I said I would have made an amendment, but I knew it wouldn't carry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

A steering committee can't.... The motion has been carried.

I want to thank everyone. We will see you on Thursday.