Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Yes, we did, and we'll be accountable for it.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
—the minister's office begins to get involved in a whole series of contracts. One contract came to the attention of the press, because it was over and above the guidelines the minister had to deal with.
We know that the deputy issues a very small amount of contract money to the minister's office. The amount that Mr. MacPhie was getting was nearly all of the minister's budget for this type of work. So Mr. MacPhie was becoming a very important person in the minister's office.
I'd like to know when the contract that caused the problem was brought to your attention, a contract of some $122,000. Did you see it in the press, or did somebody within your department see there was a problem with that contract?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I was aware of the advice the department was giving the minister's chief of staff on that contract.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
When did you become aware of a problem--before you saw it in the press, or did someone from your department notify you by note that there was a problem with what the minister was doing?
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
I'm afraid I'm not getting the quick answers I'd like to have, Mr. Wright.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I was going to actually give you a pretty quick answer. I was going to say I was advised within days of the advice, and I was advised of the ongoing advice to the minister's chief of staff on this matter.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
You were advised that there was a problem, and that somebody would bring it to the press's attention, to the attention of Parliament, and the minister would be accused of having someone prepare a speech that cost $122,000.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
It wasn't a speech. You can look at the contract, and you can talk to the person who had the contract and to the minister. It was done within his office, and I was aware of the stream of advice that went to the minister's office from this basis.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
This man MacPhie apparently came to Ottawa to work on that contract in preparation for the budget. It's not the speech, now. What did you see in concrete terms being received for the $122,000? Was there a packet of information? Was there a set of guidelines the minister should have for communicating the budget? Did you see any concrete results from the $122,000?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I think that both the contracts in question, with Sara Mintz and with Hugh MacPhie, are for their work within the minister's office, so they would see it and be ready to account for that work that was done. They're the ones who issued the contract. Now, did I see them? Yes. They were part of the interface with the minister's office--not the department, but the minister's office. He managed that well, as he did earlier in the work we engaged him on, Advantage Canada.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
When Mr. MacPhie came to Ottawa, probably with other staff members, to prepare Canada for the budget that was going to be presented, did those people from MacPhie & Company meet with officials from the Department of Finance? Did they meet with your officials?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
They were part of a regular interface with the minister's office. At budget time there is a regular, ongoing, intense interface with everybody in the department, and they were part of the minister's office at that time.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
They were part of the preparation of the budget? Were they security-cleared? What indication do we have that there was some protection for the government in terms of what might be in that budget, as that group from Toronto came here to Ottawa to participate in planning for the budget?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I think, again, the directions from the minister's office are that they have to be security-cleared, and we know that for the work we did with Hugh MacPhie on both the child panel and Advantage Canada he had a secret clearance.
Liberal
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
There was one other individual. I can't remember his name. I think it was part of that contract. Again, the minister's office would have that information. I can get it for you.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
Really, two or three people participated in a contract that cost the Canadian taxpayers about $122,000.