Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Well, it was one of the largest budgets in history, so—
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I don't know. I think it was—what was it?—450 pages, I understand.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So they edited and/or wrote 450 pages. I have here that they led five different round-table discussions in cities across Canada. They had one in Calgary, one in Winnipeg, one in Vancouver, one in North York, one in Montreal, the expenses related to which were all bundled into that $122,000?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
That's right. So we're not talking about $122,000 to write a speech here, are we?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
No, we're not. Again, you're getting my perspective as the deputy minister. They were working in the minister's office; I'm just commenting on what I saw. But it was a very extensive project, there's no question.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I just want to summarize. There's one last question before we do, though. How many dollars were spent in the last budget—ballpark? this is good for your trivia. Was it $225...?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
No, it was a multi-billion-dollar project.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
The budget of the Government of Canada for 2007 was...?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Around $200 billion; it was $217 billion.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So there was a $217 billion package that has dozens of programs, hundreds of initiatives that have to be communicated to 30 million people. In order to do that, there was a contract for a group of individuals to do 800 hours of work, to write or edit 400 pages of materials, hold five consultations right across the country. Does that seem to be, based on your experience, a fairly reasonable amount of money to spend on a task that large?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Yes, it does, but I would also say, based on our own personal experience in the department's contract with Hugh MacPhie, which was less than $25,000 for the work he did on Advantage Canada, that we got extraordinarily good value for money on that.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
To reiterate here, we have roughly a $220-billion government budget that needs to be communicated to 30 million Canadians. That budget involves dozens of programs, maybe hundreds of initiatives. In order to help do that effectively, the government engaged a team of contractors who worked roughly 800 hours to write and edit roughly 400 pages and to hold five consultations with everyday Canadians in different parts of the country. They did that for about $122,000, and you're saying that would be a fairly reasonable sum of money to do that volume of work.
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
They did not write the budget. They helped edit it and fine-tune it. But yes, overall, it was excellent value for money.
Again, that's something that, from what I can see, isn't part of the department. So I think the minister and his office have to better demonstrate that. But I don't disagree with its value.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
In regard to the rates of pay, you said roughly 800 hours of work was invested. That works out to about $130 an hour. Is that an unusual amount of money to spend?
11:55 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
The amounts were not unusual.
I'm told it was 820 hours—thank you.
The only discomfort I'm having is that these people do not report to me or to my executive team in putting this work together. They report to the chief of staff and to the minister and his team.
I have every evidence that they worked their hearts out and that they got value for it, but again, it's very hard for me to be accountable for the actual relationship between the minister and his office and these contractors. That's my only reticence.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
There was a fact there. You said you've now been told it was 120 hours of work.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you.
I have one final question for you, Mr. Wouters.
On the guidelines, it reads:
Officials delegated such authority are to exercise it with prudence and probity so that the responsible minister is acting and is seen to be acting within the letter and spirit of the FAA, the Government Contracts Regulations, and the Treasury Board's contracting directives and policy.
There are a lot of people watching this—Canadians and the people who work in the public service. Are you suggesting or are you satisfied that all those provisions were complied with?