Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 24th, 2009

[Stephen Rigby]

If I may, Chair, I'll deal with “Hide and Seek” first. That was a project run out of our northern Ontario region last year. I cannot tell you today how much it cost, but I will undertake to provide the committee with that information.

Basically it was a targeted sample of 45 cases involving criminality, and the findings of the pilot effort were twofold. We found that approximately half of the cases had departed Canada, after discussion with interlocutors in other countries; and a significant number of recommendations, probably a couple of dozen, were made as a result of the pilot project to improve our processes and procedures, the bulk of which we are trying to act on right now.

In terms of your issue around Vancouver, the coming Olympics, and the issue of trafficking, perhaps I could ask Ms. Hébert to comment quickly on the sorts of things that we have been doing in the past.

[Barbara Hébert]

There is no doubt that the Canada Border Services Agency is working very hard to prepare for the 2010 Olympics and Paralympics. We have several things under way from the point of view of operational planning and making sure we have the right number of staff, making sure that our facilities are able to process the expected volumes of travellers and athletes that will be coming. We want to make sure that we have contingency plans for unfortunate environmental or security issues. We want to make sure that our staff are properly trained, and that probably relates more directly to the question that is being asked related to temporary resident permits and working with our colleagues at CIC.

We work extremely closely with our colleagues at CIC. As I think was mentioned earlier this afternoon, we are working on making sure that we have very clear and consistent policies and practices that are well known to all our staff. We have consistent dialogue with them, at both the national and the regional level. We have consultative committees on which we both sit to make sure that all our policies in fact are well understood and that we are working shoulder to shoulder as we move forward. That applies not only to the Olympics but certainly holistically to all the programs that we administer.

As for the question related to trafficking in particular, there is no doubt that over the last little while all management and staff at CBSA are very sensitive to this issue. Our officers are much more aware of the implications of this, and we try to make sure that they are looking for this.

Our primary responsibility from an immigration perspective at ports of entry is to determine admissibility to the country. For human trafficking as well as some other issues, that would probably unfold much more in an investigative and subsequent prosecutorial process, not so much at a port of entry.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

But you didn't answer my question, Mr. Rigby. There was an article that said that 1,973 foreign criminals out of 2,000 have gone away somewhere. Have they gone underground? Are you sure they've gone somewhere else?

[Stephen Rigby]

We know, in the case of the “Hide and Seek” sample, that they have left. So in the case of that particular sample, and the approximately 50% that we identified as having left, they have left Canada.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Fair enough. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Ratansi.

Mr. Young, for five minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I was just doing the math on that number of 41,000. I have to say, on the face of it, it sounds like a pretty big number.

But I was looking at the number of travellers you process: 97 million travellers. That's a phenomenal number. And in the big picture, your authority is over the world's largest country, a half a continent with 5,000 kilometres of border, between two of the freest societies on earth. And after following the U.S. election, we know that they don't know if they have 10 million illegal immigrants or 20 million illegal immigrants. And you have this huge trading partnership that's the largest in the world, with billions going back and forth across the border weekly.

I have to say, under the circumstances, I think you're doing a pretty good job. So I want to say something positive before everybody goes home tonight and goes to bed.

[Stephen Rigby]

Thank you, sir.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

But it can always be better, and I think we would agree that it should be better.

What do you need to improve the situation?

[Stephen Rigby]

I would say, in the near term, we need time to implement this plan. We're asked regularly if we have sufficient resources to pursue this problem or that problem. And I can say, without reservation, I have a wide range of problems that I have to address. This is one of the most significant.

The thing that's most important to me, as the incoming president, is that I assure myself that the expenditures I'm making today are being made most efficiently, targeting the highest areas of risk, and before I had any conversation with the government about the need for additional resources that I could give assurances that we were getting good return on the investment we're making in this program, and indeed all the programs.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

So you're not asking for any more money?

[Stephen Rigby]

I am not asking for any more money at the current time.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

It's amazing.

In 2006-07 you removed 12,217 persons, including almost 2,000 criminals, and you're saying the number of refugee claimants appears to be pretty well in sync with the number of people that have sort of disappeared into society.

Why does the number of refugee claimants go up every year?

[Stephen Rigby]

Well, I don't wish to be simplistic about it, but it's an increasingly uncertain and difficult world. Mexico's an interesting example. It's probably our highest-volume source country for refugee applicants. People who are facing difficult economic and social situations at home look to Canada as a country that really represents a wonderful opportunity, both for them and their family. I think we are simply seeing the byproduct of people viewing Canada very positively and wanting to take advantage of the immigration opportunities and refugee opportunities that might exist.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Right.

The assistant AG says you've improved processes to track people for removal and for focusing on high-risk individuals. How did you do that?

[Stephen Rigby]

I think it's a function of a couple of things. Number one, it's making the improvements that we want to make to the national case management system. I think the AG also highlighted a number of areas where we need to have better data. We've started that process. The more information we have, the more incisive and acute we're going to be in the decisions we make.

The other thing we are trying, as I said a little bit earlier in the discussion, is to focus in on what we refer to as data mining. It's the issue of going into federal, provincial, and municipal law enforcement databases and seeing if we can do a better job at investigating the sorts of people we're looking for. A lot of them, quite honestly, are hiding in plain sight. They are simply there; they have failed to report. So we need to assure ourselves that we are doing the obvious things to look for them if they are just sitting there under their proper name and residing somewhere in Canada.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

In the January 2006 election I was a candidate. I didn't prevail, but there was a new government in Canada. About a month later there was a story on a Portuguese cable TV channel. There's a big Portuguese population, about 5,000 people, and there was a story about this family at the airport that was being deported that had been in Canada for ten years. There were tears because one young lady was just finishing high school--she had three weeks to go--and of course somebody broke the rules ten years ago and they were paying a big price ten years later. It's a sad situation. Since there was a new government, I was getting the heat as if it was something that we did within four weeks. Everybody was still looking for their new offices and where the washrooms were in Parliament.

I'm wondering what we can do to help avoid those situations. Is there clemency for people in those situations, or can they formally request clemency?

[Stephen Rigby]

Yes. We often see such situations as a result of the length of time it takes to process people through the full rigour and available recourse in the immigration system, where they will have been in Canada for many years before the final disposition is made. In that time you will see situations where people actually marry and raise families—

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

You said in plain sight. They're in plain view.

[Stephen Rigby]

That is correct.

There is clemency available. There is a range of issues. The best one that I might cite is that application can be made to ministers for what is referred to as a humanitarian and compassionate decision to allow certain people to remain in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Young.

Madame Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm really sorry that I didn't hear all your statements. However, some people in the room know that I sat on the Immigration Committee, where I had the honour of hearing these speeches on undesirable persons on a number of occasions.

For my colleagues, I would point out that we're putting a great deal of emphasis on refugees; we always come back to the refugee question. However, as you are no doubt aware, the board, the IRB, is short of board members. The number of people waiting for decisions is currently increasing. Unfortunately, the government has been immobile for a number of years and is not appointing or renewing the terms of the IRB members quickly. That's a bit of an answer to Mr. Young's question concerning the number of people.

As you are also aware, there have been regulatory changes regarding the borders between Canada and the United States. It's entirely normal, when there is a change to regulations, that there is an increase in the number of applications. People are afraid that the legislation doesn't provide for any transition. These people are also arriving at the borders more quickly than expected. So we have to manage a larger number of newcomers.

I've had the opportunity to visit the places where people are held temporarily, sometimes for a little longer. Action has previously been taken to make the agency aware that pregnant women were being held for long periods of time and that there were a number of deficiencies in that regard, such as access to physicians, access to translators. You are well aware of that situation.

In addition, my colleague spoke about the number of travellers: 97 million travellers; that's enormous. He also added that we're having trouble locating 41,000 individuals or that we've lost all trace of them. It should be pointed that a removal order can be issued against a person for a number of reasons, and that those 41,000 individuals are not necessarily criminals, although some of them are.

According to Minister Day's statement, we are probably right to be concerned about the large number of these individuals because they are harder to find. It's always a challenge to find people when you let them go. On the other hand, most of them aren't criminals, even though they are ineligible.

In those cases, we find people, like students who haven't renewed their permits or who are waiting for a permanent residency decision. Sometimes, the file is lost in Vegreville. In other cases, the person has forgotten to renew his temporary work permit. In the system, there's a human factor that must remain that way. In fact, if we consider the people in the field, whether they be immigration lawyers or people working with refugees, or even the Canadian Bar Association, on the whole, they think you're proceeding with removal too quickly in a number of cases, and they would like to have more time to intervene.

I simply wanted to clarify that point because, based on our understanding of the issue, you have to be aware of all those factors that reflect the complexity of the immigration system.

[Stephen Rigby]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That's a long question.

[Stephen Rigby]

Perhaps I can start with the last subject you raised.

Your point is absolutely well taken. It's important to make a distinction between the warrant cases and regular removals, people who are failed refugees.

The warrant cases are people who have left the system and are at large. We have to find them, and we have to make the appropriate response. There are a large number of other people who leave Canada voluntarily. Often they come back and they will try again to make refugee claims, or they might make permanent residence applications, etc. But your point is absolutely well taken. There is a distinction to be made.

In terms of the holding-centre conditions, a number of members have commented on this. We consider this to be very important. Obviously we pay close attention to the advice we get from the Canadian Council for Refugees, the Red Cross, etc., in terms of those conditions. We try very, very hard to make sure that overcapacity is handled properly and only in very short-term situations.

Concerning border changes, the major border change this year will be the implementation of the western hemisphere travel initiative at the land border, which will be the enhancement of documentary requirements in the United States. We have worked very closely with our American colleagues to prepare for this implementation, which is scheduled for June. But you're right, when these changes do occur they can have an impact on how the immigration process proceeds.

And finally, on the issue of Immigration and Refugee Board members, I think it is recognized that there has been a shortage of members. I can't comment for the board, but it is my understanding that steps are being taken to name new members now.