Public Accounts Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I would like to draw the attention of both the Commissioner and the two departments to the issue of PCBs. Your report contains a rather mysterious and disturbing paragraph. I would like to get some clarification. It is paragraph 2.55, in the middle of the paragraph, where it reads:However, research conducted by a number of different organizations since the 1990s indicates that the use of PCBs in sealants may represent a source of ongoing exposure to low levels of PCBs, present risks to workers restoring or demolishing these structures, and result in localized soil contamination and contaminated waste. We found that neither Environment Canada nor Health Canada has responded to this research, for example, by conducting research to determine the existence and significance of PCBs in building sealants, including federal facilities and buildings on federal lands. We note that several members of the Stockholm Convention have recognized this issue.

First of all, Mr. Vaughan, who are you referring to when you say that organizations since the 1990s have been talking about this problem with PCBs?

[Scott Vaughan]

Thank you for your question.

First of all, we noted that research has been conducted by the University of Toronto. That research includes a map identifying older buildings in Toronto which are probably associated with the PCB problem. So, there is a map that specifically identifies those buildings.

I believe research has also been conducted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regarding those substances.

Mr. McKenzie, would you like to add something?

[Jim McKenzie, Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's an important question. On PCBs, what we've noted, as Mr. Vaughan has mentioned, is that during our work we talked to various organizations involved in the management of toxic substances and this issue came up. We were speaking to an expert, a researcher in Toronto who has been pursuing this, who also pointed out that research is taking place both in Europe and in the United States regarding this issue.

Recently, the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States has launched new research into the presence of PCBs in caulking in older buildings. They have issued guidance for schools. It's an old substance. It's an emerging issue with respect to an old substance. Again, it's an example of how we may feel that we've made a lot of progress in terms of some of these substances, and then science comes along and says there are still some issues that need to be addressed.

So just in summary, there are researchers in Europe and the United States, as well as Canada.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I understand that there is a lot of research, and you are saying the two departments did not react to that, and Canada se traîne les pieds, si je comprends bien. So can I ask the two departments what is happening specifically on this issue in paragraph 2.55?

[Glenda Yeates]

Thank you very much for the question.

We certainly share the view that this is an important emerging issue. As has been noted, this is an issue that has emerged relatively recently. Our scientists are aware of it. We've been in discussions with the U.S. EPA, for example. As they are doing research, we want to be linked to it so we are in touch with them.

As was noted earlier, we try wherever we can to work in partnership with other countries. If any one of us discovers something new, an emergent issue, we will work on it. It's also an issue that we will monitor as the science develops.

But even while it's in the developmental stage, we will make our colleagues in the provinces and territories aware. Because there may be occupational health and safety guidance they would want to follow up on even while the science is developmental.

So this is an issue we are monitoring internationally, and if the science that we discover, or that our partners discover in concert with us...we share this information. If we have new information that additional action is warranted, then we will certainly take it.

[Cynthia Wright]

I would just briefly add that the existing PCB regulations do cover the safe disposal of mercury, including from sealants and paints.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wright.

Mr. Dreeshen, you have five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming here today.

There are just a couple of questions. Really, I wanted to speak somewhat about the research and the surveys and about some of the different programs you've had. I noted in paragraph 2.59 that there's discussion on the Canadian Health Measures Survey that took place in 2007, on the testing that was done, and the fact that this was completed in 2009, I believe, or at least during that span. I was just wondering if you could comment on some of the results that you did see from that particular survey.

[Glenda Yeates]

Thank you very much for the question.

The first cycle of the survey is now complete, as you mentioned. The results of this survey will be released this summer, so we'll start to have very good information that comes out. The second cycle is already under way. I think that longitudinal sense of how things are moving over time will also be very important for us.

We have started to see some of the initial findings on lead. For example, some of the data that's been talked about today were some of the early findings from those studies. We will be releasing the findings with more of the analysis this summer. We think there's a good opportunity to continue to put this information in the public domain and, as we say, to continue to monitor. We think the trends over time will be very important.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you.

The other was the 2007 study, “Maternal-Infant Research on Environmental Chemicals”, and I wonder if anyone could comment on that as well.

[Glenda Yeates]

I'd be happy to comment on that. When we spoke earlier about the various facets of a strategy, it is the assessment and the risk management, but it also is research and ongoing science, some of which we get internationally, but others of which we do actually here in Canada. The maternal-infant research on environmental chemicals is a study of that nature and we think it's very important.

I think we're all particularly thoughtful about the particular risks for pregnant women, for example, in terms of those risks from environmental exposure to heavy metals. This is a cohort study that has been established. We are in the midst of undertaking that study now. Through that, we believe that we'll be able to have additional information on pregnant women and babies in terms of their exposure to environmental chemicals. That will give us the kind of research that might then again inform future action.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Is this information being shared, then, with your provincial and territorial counterparts as well? I noted that when Mr. Saxton addressed this earlier he was speaking about that multi-jurisdictional portion. I'm just wondering whether or not you feel that everyone is getting the information they need, how well things are working, and if perhaps you're having any difficulties that we might be able to help out with.

[Glenda Yeates]

I appreciate the question. As a former provincial deputy minister of health, I certainly take the partnership with the provinces very, very seriously. I think it's clear that we do work in provinces. Whether it's on the occupational health and safety front or in the public health domain, or with the public health officers who work for our regional health authorities or others across the country, what's important is that we have the capacity centrally in Health Canada to gather the science.

We have the expertise in assessing the science and putting it out there. Ultimately, we want to make sure that our partners on the ground, as I say, either as public health officers or provinces and territories, have the information, so we work very much in partnership. My colleague has spoken about the ongoing and regular committee processes we have to keep informed so that the information is not only generated at a high quality but disseminated and used throughout the country.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

This may be my last question. I'm on the aboriginal affairs and northern development committee. Could you perhaps comment a little more on your northern contaminants program? You spoke of different ways of being able to present your efforts and to take a look at the types of things that you feel are happening. What do you feel are going to be some of the results of that particular program?

[Glenda Yeates]

Again, I think the Arctic poses some particular challenges. I think we're very mindful of being supportive of country foods and other things that support a healthy lifestyle for people in the Arctic. But we also recognize that there may be some particular challenges with some of the contaminants we've spoken of.

Very much, we see this as a partnership on an ongoing basis. Again, we'll monitor the trends over time. We can inform local communities in the Arctic on what the contaminant status is in various foods and give them the information and the assurance they need to act either as individuals or as communities or governments as to whether there is additional action that needs to be taken. I think it's a key part of the strategy of informing consumers and also informing potential regulatory events.

Again, the fact is that it's not just federal government departments around the table, but a broad range of stakeholders who bring their perspectives and who can then take the information and use it in their roles.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dreeshen.

That concludes the second round. I just have one quick question to Ms. Yeates and perhaps to Mr. Gray.

One of the primary documents that parliamentarians receive on an annual basis is, of course, the departmental performance reports from each of the departments--the Department of the Environment, the Department of Health. The reports are to be used by legislators, the public, and the media. I usually read them before the hearing. I didn't read them in this particular case, but I will, and if I read them, is there a very good, readable summary on this whole issue--because it is an important issue--in your departmental performance reports?

[Glenda Yeates]

It's an excellent question. I confess that I have looked at our departmental reports, but I don't recall this specific detail. In general terms, I would be confident that we have outlined it there, but I would want to double-check and just make sure. I know that the chemicals management plan is referenced in the report, and certainly the ongoing targets are part of what we report to parliamentarians on. So it is part of the report and I will just have to double-check, in my case, for the details.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Gray, do you have anything to say?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

I can't add much more detail to that. The chemical management plan is in the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

The time for the meeting is almost up and I am going to adjourn. We've had a good hearing. I thank all the members. I thank all the witnesses.

I want to provide ample opportunity for each of the main witnesses to provide us with any closing comments that you want to make in concluding.

I am going to start with you, Mr. Vaughan.

[Scott Vaughan]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Let me just underscore again how much we've appreciated appearing before this committee. As we've heard in the last two hours, these are important issues, and specifically, these are important management issues. I very much look forward to working with this committee on these and other important matters, and we hope this has been beneficial to members as well as to us. We look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you very much again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Again, we want to thank you and your office for all the great work.

Ms. Yeates, do you have any closing or concluding comments?

[Glenda Yeates]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to reinforce what the commissioner has said, I think we very much appreciate the focus and interest from the parliamentarians. Sometimes this work by our scientists and others goes a bit unheralded and unseen by Canadians. I think we share the interest in and the sense of its importance.

I would also reinforce that we've had some discussion today about perhaps augmenting the work with some of the modernized tools. We would certainly hope, if there is future consideration by Parliament of the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act, that it would in fact enable us to do this work with even more up-to-date tools and measures.

Thank you very much for the interest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Yeates.

Ms. Wright, do you have any concluding comments?