Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2011

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine. Thank you.

Now Mr. Shipley, please.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Wiersema, for being back here, which is being talked about as being maybe your last official duty as interim Auditor General, and thank you.

I'd like to go to chapter 3 because I want to get an understanding of your comments in talking about the farmers: that the agriculture industry can wait up to two years for a payment and that the amount of the payment is hard to project.

On the amount of payment I agree. Unfortunately, we got tied in with a past program that makes that understanding of bankable very difficult.

But the two years.... I'm being told by my producers that I think some of that problem comes with farm businesses, corporations, that have off-calendar year-ends. So if they end up in March...they actually can end up about a year and three months behind just because they've been off the calendar year-end.

I've talked with the federal Minister of Agriculture. In Ontario, it is run by Agricorp, through which those funds are funnelled. My understanding also is that there are some problems with the systems of Agricorp in being able to deal with the numbers. Ontario is one of the largest in terms of agricultural producers out there and across Canada.

Can you help explain to me what that actually means? I know we have to wait for CRA to get the information back. I do know that we actually put out 50% ahead, which helps; that's on an estimate in terms of what they may be getting and that has to be documented. But I'm wondering where does.... Because it's not just federal. I'm wondering if you could help us understand the complexity of it and why you think there's maybe a delay of two years.

[John Wiersema]

Thank you for that, Mr. Chairman. With your permission, I'll perhaps ask Mr. Maxwell to elaborate.

The Department of Agriculture is very aware of this challenge. It is a challenge between targeting the particular needs of an individual producer versus the timeliness of payments. The more targeted you become, the more data you need. The department is aware of this. It is still taking a long time for producers to get their money.

There are two important points to note here. Yes, the provinces are involved in delivering these payments, but ultimately I don't think the producers care very much whether it's a provincial responsibility or a producer responsibility. If they're looking to get support from the government, they're looking to get it as quickly as possible.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

In Ontario's case, they do the delivery. Our Minister of Agriculture does not have the issue of the changing and being able to roll that out more quickly. I wonder if you have any explanation of that collaboration--I don't see it in the report--and how that works when it becomes.... I know there are delays and they're are frustrating--tell me--but I'm not so sure it's all based on what's in the report in terms of that responsibility of the federal government.

[John Wiersema]

The only very quick comment I'll make, Mr. Chairman, is that the federal government, in consultation with the provinces, designs the program. Much of the delivery takes place at the provincial governments, so there is a shared responsibility here.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Mr. Maxwell.

[Neil Maxwell, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Chair.

I would add that there are probably two main causes for the delays. The one that has been discussed here is the complexity of the design of the program. We also found a number of areas where the federal administration could be streamlined.

Probably the most important point I'd underline in answering that question is that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada themselves don't have a good answer as to why those delays have occurred. We were quite surprised that they hadn't analyzed where the blockages and choke points were in the process. That was one of our recommendations.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Good. I look forward to that discussion when we have them in front of us.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Can I quickly go to the economic action plan? You've done a review of it. A huge number of programs and projects went out. I don't know if there has been a program that did so much in a short period of time. I guess that was sort of the initiative of it.

Did it deliver on what it said it would do? Did money go to the intended purposes? Did the government actually get what it paid for?

[John Wiersema]

We audited three programs in the economic action plan, aggregating some $7 billion of spending. We have a positive message to convey to Parliament. Those three programs were well managed and carefully monitored by the departments. The departments intervened where necessary and ensured that the Government of Canada got what it paid for.

The overall success of the economic action plan is not something we're in a position to assess. One of the main findings of this report is that the government itself has committed to report to Parliament on the results achieved from the economic action plan. We think that's vitally important for something as significant as this.

We lend our full support to the government on moving forward to provide that accountability reporting back to Parliament.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Madam Blanchette-Lamothe.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

If I may, I would like to talk about the issuing of visas. I am a little concerned. More than 10 years ago, you pointed out deficiencies and made recommendations. You were told that they had been accepted. Ten years later, here we are again with basically the same comments and the same deficiencies.

Do you have any reason to believe that, this time, accepting your recommendations means real improvements or do we still have to be skeptical that there will be any improvement in issuing visas?

[John Wiersema]

No, not yet. I think it would be important for the committee to call a meeting on the matter. The last time we audited this program, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts did not get into the process of asking for an action plan and some follow-up.

I think the committee would be better served to seek those assurances that these issues will be addressed on a timely basis from the affected departments themselves.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that we ask the department for an action plan and then, in due course, we do a new investigation into the same things.

[John Wiersema]

That is for the committee to decide. I feel that it is important to hold a hearing into the matter.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

About how soon do you think it would be helpful to have another hearing about the issuing of visas?

[John Wiersema]

I feel that is for the committee to decide. In my opinion, this chapter is a priority and needs a hearing. That would be my recommendation.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

With regard to the issuing of visas, your audit focuses on health and security. You have not said a lot about wait times, denials of consent, support for new applications and difficulties in renewing visas.

Is that because the questions of health and security are really critical, or because you did not see the relevance of working on matters related to the issuing of visas?

[John Wiersema]

I will ask Wendy to answer, Mr. Chair, but, in my view, this audit focuses on health and security.

[Wendy Loschiuk, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

It does. In this audit, we limited ourselves to the part of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act that says that there are some health reasons and some security reasons why you cannot enter Canada.

We looked at the system in place, with CIC and the Canadian Border Services Agency, to determine whether someone is eligible for reasons of—

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Excuse me, I have to interrupt you because I still have a lot of questions.

Was it your choice to focus your work on security? In our constituencies, we hear a lot of concerns about wait times and denials of consent and so on. Why did you not look into that aspect of issuing visas?

[Wendy Loschiuk]

There are reasons for that. Different departments are involved. There is CSIS, the RCMP, the Canadian Border Services Agency and CIC. We have to make decisions and there is information to look at. We did not look into the system in other departments because the Canadian Border Services Agency is responsible for doing that. We stopped our audit at that point.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Wiersema, you often talk about sustained leadership. What do you mean by a lack of sustained leadership that would take care of the basic elements so that government programs could be effective?

[John Wiersema]

It is difficult to answer that question, Mr. Chair.

It's my last hearing as Interim Auditor General. I'll stick my neck out again. If senior officials say they're going to do something and have committed to the Parliament of Canada that they're going to do something, then I think they should be expected to deliver it.

If you've made commitments to Parliament saying that certain issues will be addressed at a certain point in time, I think it's important that people follow through and be held accountable for whether or not they deliver on those commitments. Do what you say you're going to do.