Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 24th, 2014

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank all of our presenters today. Their testimony is very helpful.

First of all I'd like to direct my questions to Mr. Ferguson, the Auditor General.

Sir, I do appreciate your opening comments. Could you give us the rationale? Usually your office conducts these performance audits with the idea of pointing out where the government can do better. Can you give us a little of the rationale specific to this? This seems to be more of a global issue rather than a specific problem. Could you speak to that?

[Michael Ferguson]

I think in general we take very much an approach now of looking at horizontal issues, so issues that involve more than one department. We look at government-wide strategies, and then look at how various government departments are playing a role in that strategy.

I think the move towards audits that look horizontally across government is one we have been doing for a number of years now.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Relative to some of the other people at this table, I'm a relatively new member of Parliament, but I've been able to attend many of your technical briefings.

I did notice that this particular report seems to have more global recommendations rather than narrowing in on a particular area, and there are only four of them. Is there a reason for that specifically? Is there a direction the team is trying to point at?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again I think what we try to do when we're making recommendations is to focus on what's most important. We don't try to overwhelm departments with a quantity of recommendations. We try to focus in on the key areas.

For example, in this particular audit, the idea of having a strategy that oversees what government wants to do in terms of online services would be one of the key things we think needs to be done.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'm very happy that you do what you do because it's very important, particularly for the government to hear those criticisms that come up. From reviewing the report, one thing that I would point to as a concern for me is that while the attention really is based on accessible, convenient Internet service providing, there doesn't seem to be as much focus on security. One thing the report doesn't do is give some context of what government has done before, moving toward an online presence and delivering those things to Canadians.

One of the things I've noticed is there isn't much context. For example, Sony had a huge hack of their systems revealing millions of users' personal information, and with Target in the United States, possibly many millions of people had their credit card information compromised.

I just wanted to voice the concern that sometimes it's the context that is given. I think almost all of us would agree that the Government of Canada has a specific duty to make sure these things are handled properly.

Anyway, Mr. Ferguson, it's not so much directed to you, but more to point out that I think the third point of security is a challenge.

I'd like to direct my questions to Ms. Charette.

Ms. Charette, since you're really responsible for the overarching strategy for Treasury Board Secretariat, could you point out some of the concerns they might have as far as security goes? Again, I would hope that we would all agree that security should be top of mind for Canadians' personal information.

What kinds of challenges would the secure access to services leave for yourself and maybe for some of the other departments?

[Corinne Charette]

Yes, security is certainly top of mind in any online service delivery. In fact, balancing convenience with security and the protection of personal and confidential information is always the key challenge that we work with and we've kept focused on this for some time.

For instance, our new cyber authentication service, which provides Canadians single sign-on ability to access government services online, is very secure. It essentially provides the ability of a secure and encrypted connection to deal with online services. We secure our services that way. Departments, and certainly with the help of Shared Services Canada, clearly secure our IT infrastructure and applications. Of course, it's up to Canadians themselves to ensure that they don't share their passwords, and so on.

Online security is a multi-faceted dimension and I can say that we're constantly focused on it.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I also wanted to pass on to the Auditor General that I actually found this report very good, as far as the charts that were used are concerned. It gives you a quick snapshot of the different processes an individual may have to follow as well as the amount of time it might take to get some of the basic things done, for example, with Industry Canada.

I hope I'll get another turn, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Perfect, five minutes on the money. Thank you very much.

Mr. Allen, you have the floor.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Thank you to our witnesses and thank you to the Auditor General and his department again for putting the report together. I always find it fascinating.

To follow up on Mr. Albas' piece on security issues, I noticed through Treasury Board in your remarks on page five you talked about “greater collaboration with the private sector and other levels of government”.

In light of Mr. Albas' issue about security, which I share, I also jotted down the example of Target in the United States, albeit there were limited numbers of Canadians involved in that breach of security. It was more Americans than Canadians, but there certainly were Canadians affected because I know, sin of all sins, many Canadians do cross-border shop and they do use Target in the United States, and they can get a credit card there. That means they would be compromised as well.

What exactly does greater collaboration with the private sector mean vis-à-vis security?

[Corinne Charette]

Absolutely.

One of our solutions for online authentication is to be able to leverage the financial institution's security for online services. For instance, Canadians can now, using their bank debit card, go through the banking infrastructure for online access and access their government services that way. This allows us basically to take advantage of financial institutions, their great focus and continuing investment in cyber infrastructure, and by working with them to leverage that asset to provide single sign-on and use of service at the lowest possible cost.

We think there are opportunities to do that and more.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Fair enough. Thank you.

Ms. Bastien, in your opening statements you talked about the number of folks who use My VAC. You say on page 2 of your remarks that 207,900 individuals, ranging in age from 19 to 100, are part of that group you'd broken down here.

On page 3 you say that the My VAC Account currently has 9,000 registered users. Do you mean individuals?

[Charlotte Bastien]

Yes, they are individual users.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Let me do a comparison: 207,900 versus 9,000 is about 4.5% in rough numbers. I won't quibble with folks on whether it's 4.489% or whether it's 4.512%, but it's 4.5% rounded off.

This is versus CRA's number. Mr. Bennett, I think you reported that 76% of individual tax users actually use online services.

Your movement, Ms. Bastien, toward online services with an enrolment of 4.5% has a long way to go in light of the fact that our friends over at social or skills development—I'll use both S's and just call you “SSD”.

[Carolina Giliberti]

I need to clarify that it's “Social”.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

They're saying that as they transition some of your work to them at their 600-plus Service Canada outlets, their emphasis is on online services, and you have 4.5% of your client base online.

The fundamental question is how you say to the folks over at Social Development Canada, “Oh, by the way, you're going to have to take a lot of in-person online visits, or perhaps on-call visits to your call centre, because you don't have very many registered to use your online services.”

I mean, to me the numbers don't lie. You have 4.5% of your clients online.

What's your plan?

[Charlotte Bastien]

The plan is to provide better functionality. Right now they are limited regarding certain programs to which veterans can apply. By expanding the number of program applications that can be done online, that will grow the number. As well, with the partnership with Service Canada at the moment, they can assist veterans with the application in person with only two programs, the veterans independence program, VIP, and the disability programs.

Regarding our in-person service, there are things right now that are pretty difficult to do online. I'll give you an example. When we do a home visit for an assessment, either a nursing assessment or an assessment by a case manager for the rehab program, currently that's not the kind of business line we can do online. That will continue to be in-person service.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, Mr. Allen, your time has expired.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I don't like to do it that way, but it's the only way, folks.

Mr. Woodworth, you have the floor, sir.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thanks to the witnesses for their attendance here today.

I want to say especially to you, Mr. Ferguson, how much I appreciate the work your department does. I think if Canadians could actually sit and read these reports, and understand what a great effort at continuous improvement we make in the Government of Canada, with the great many suggestions your department puts forward and the way the departments take them up, they would be very impressed. As you know, from time to time I worry a little bit about the cost, but at the same time, I just think we have a superlative system with your help in improving our government processes on a continuous basis.

As well, Mr. Ferguson, I'm grateful that your reports are even-handed. Where there is credit due, credit is given. In that respect, I'd like to begin by asking you some questions regarding paragraph 2.26 of chapter 2.

I understand that between 2009 and 2012, Canada Revenue Agency added over 40 online enhancements for an investment of just over $6.4 million, increasing online functionality and use for both individuals and businesses. That seems to me to be an impressive figure, 40 online service enhancements.

Do you have anywhere a listing that you could distribute to us of those 40 enhancements?

[Michael Ferguson]

I think it would be best if the list actually came from CRA. I think they would be willing to do that.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I assume, since it was mentioned in your report, that you would have that and I would be able to ask you for that.

[Michael Ferguson]

We would have that list. What I'd have to do is I'd have to take it under advisement simply because it's an audit working paper.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I see. Okay, understood.

[Michael Ferguson]

CRA could provide the information.