Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 24th, 2014

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

No, I recognize that, Ms. Giliberti. What I'm saying to you is that you didn't share the document “Vision 2020” with Mr. Ferguson's group when it was auditing because you were working on it. We have no idea if it's the same or different. Your management plan says you are working towards 2020—

[Carolina Giliberti]

Yes.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

—not 2018. They have the same timeline, by the way, April 2015. There's no dispute there. It's not a timeline issue. I recognize that more than likely—and I take your word for it, Madam—it is probably a title change.

[Carolina Giliberti]

Yes.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Our dilemma is you have now referenced a document that we don't have. I would ask, through the chair, that perhaps you could send it to the Auditor General's office so they could look at it and say it is one and the same, or send it the committee, but I leave that in the hands of the chair and the department to figure out, because I don't know. I think you're saying it's just a name change, but I certainly wouldn't know that if it referenced two documents. But it's the same timeline; it's probably the same thing.

I leave it at that and turn it over to Mr. Giguère.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Ferguson, earlier we were talking about the fact that a massive amount of money, some $377 million, was spent to design the Secure Channel infrastructure, which had a total price tag of $975 million. For a government set on balancing the budget, there are no savings to be had in this situation.

As we speak, do the departments have the staff to oversee the implementation of this computer system? If so, the government would not have to systematically hand over the bidding process to a private company, who would then be controlling another private company.

Do the departments and Treasury Board have the human resources that would be needed to contain these costs both now and in the future, because the price tag seems a bit too high to me?

[Michael Ferguson]

I think what we've indicated here is that the cost of secure channel was very high. There was a recognition as well that it wasn't necessarily going to be the best solution to what they were trying to accomplish so there was this change of course in terms of how the secure access would be offered, and that's explained in here. There was a lot of money spent on this initiative. The more recent ways of dealing with this problem are going to be less expensive, so that's a good thing. Nevertheless, there's a lot of sunk cost related to the secure channel.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Similarly, in paragraph 2.62, you note the lack of consistent reporting across the departments when it comes to the costs of delivering services online. I can understand your frustration; just imagine how we feel. We are getting these bills and no one can tell us whether another department has already paid for the same thing. That kind of approach makes it impossible to get an overall picture of related spending.

Is there anything else you could recommend to help departments do a better job of monitoring and containing costs government-wide?

[Michael Ferguson]

What we're recommending in paragraph 2.65 is that there should be a standard methodology—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I apologize once again to you, sir.

Our time, colleagues, has expired. I'm glad we don't have to do it that way all the time. I prefer to give people a chance to finish their thoughts.

There's one quick matter arising from our discussions. Toward the end, Mr. Allen, I think you were asking if it would be possible to get the 2018 document, as redone in 2020.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Let me see if I got the question right. You were asking if that could be circulated to the committee members and the AG. Was that the request?

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

I'm easy either way, Mr. Chair. If the Auditor General says it's one and the same, I'm good with that.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay.

Auditor General, Mr. Allen is asking if the 2018 document is the same as the 2020 document, to the best of your knowledge.

[Michael Ferguson]

I have no reason to expect it was any different. We did see the document titled “Vision 2018”. I don't think we've seen the document titled “Vision 2020”. So, at what point in time.... If there are any changes or not, I couldn't say.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Okay.

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, again, we have routine motions that cover what we can ask of different individuals and their departments. We'll be getting action plans and whatnot. While I understand people want to see certain things.... There's nothing negating a private member's asking a department or the Auditor General for more follow-up information, and those departments can deal with those requests as they come along, but Mr. Chair, we have routine motions that handle what is expected as far as action plans are concerned.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Fair enough, but it's not unusual at all for members to request information. Where we get into controversy is if it costs a lot of money to generate documents. In this case, though, it looked like a quick solution to me. There was a suggestion that 2018 has been updated to 2020. There's a suggestion from the authors that it's the same document. Mr. Allen wanted to see it. I was just looking to see if we could get that circulated to committee members and Mr. Ferguson. That deals with the issue, and we're good.

Can you live with that, Mr. Albas?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Well, again, Mr. Chair, we have routine motions and requirements. If people have specific interests—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

No, we don't, no. I'm sorry—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

—they should follow that.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to. It's not unusual in the course of meetings to ask for clarification, especially of a document that already exists.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

My understanding, Mr. Chair, is that as you said, there are some cases where people will ask for things that may cause a tremendous amount of work to be done. I'm just making sure that whatever we do ask is specific to our routine motions, where we have requirements in what we ask for. I'm not looking for a fight, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

No, I understand. I'm not either. My concern is that I don't think we have those kinds of requirements. I'm a little confused. We can talk about that later at our business meeting.

Again, it's a document that exists, and the department is quite willing to share it. It seems to me it would be easy for us to acquiesce, to just circulate a document that already exists and answer the member's questions.

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

On the point of order, Mr. Chair, I didn't hear Mr. Allen, when he was questioning the witness, ask for a copy.