Evidence of meeting #25 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
I now declare this 25th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in order.
Colleagues, we have the bells ringing and we've agreed that I'm going to mention a couple of small pieces of business. Then we'll move immediately to the presentation by the Auditor General, Mr. Ferguson. I'll then suspend the meeting and we'll go to the House. When we've concluded voting we will return here and begin our questioning in the usual rotation.
Is everybody in agreement?
3:30 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
3:30 p.m.
Chair
All right.
Colleagues, you'll recall that we were rescheduling chapter 8, and the choice next week was Monday or Wednesday. It ends up that Wednesday is the best day for all the parties. So on Wednesday we will be holding a public hearing on chapter 8, “Disaster Relief for Producers—Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada” of the Fall 2013 AG report.
Also, on Monday, May 12, we will do committee business. We have a number of things outstanding.
The last thing I'll mention is the invitation to the annual national conference of public accounts committees to held in St. John's, Newfoundland this year. The invitation is being sent around to you, and I've asked Joann to take a look at a draft budget and any other prep material and have it ready for our Monday business meeting, so we can make some decisions on what we want to do on that.
So if we're good to go, Mr. Ferguson, I'll ask you to read your presentation on your report. Then, as I say, we will suspend, return, and continue after that.
Sir, you now have the floor.
3:30 p.m.
Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I am pleased to present my spring 2014 report, which was tabled in the House of Commons yesterday.
I am accompanied by assistant auditors general Jerome Berthelette and Wendy Loschiuk, and audit principal John Affleck.
This report touches on a number of different areas which illustrate how important it is for government to consider both the long- and short-term perspectives when planning programs. Serving immediate needs can move the emphasis away from long-term planning, which can impact results down the road.
In the first audit, we looked at how the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, the RCMP, National Defence and Finance Canada have carried out key responsibilities to manage the federal government's pension plans for public servants.
The federal government's net liability relating to these pension plans exceeds $150 billion. Although we found that the entities we audited have carried out their responsibilities under the law, no one is responsible for carrying out a regular and systematic assessment of whether Government of Canada pension plans are sustainable over the long term.
Pension plans are operating now in an environment where interest rates are low and plan members are living longer. It is therefore important that public sector pension plans be designed and managed in a way that considers not just present circumstances, but also protects the interests of current and future employees and taxpayers.
We also looked at how Correctional Service Canada planned and executed the expansion of its correctional facilities to accommodate offenders. The agency is adding over 2,700 cells to 37 facilities. It expects that when it completes this work, in 2015, overcrowding in federal prisons will largely be eased.
We found that Correctional Service met its immediate needs, but it did not consider the impact of expansions on supporting infrastructure. It also did not consider how to address regional pressures and the long-term needs of the offender population. Decisions about expansions were based on where land was available and where construction could be completed quickly. For example, we found that eight of twenty institutions that were initially identified for closure were instead expanded. The agency has committed to developing a long-term accommodation plan, by 2015, to guide modernization.
Let's turn our attention to the first nations policing program. This program was created in 1991 to address concerns about policing in first nations communities. The program is not working as intended, and many issues persist. For example, though intended to provide first nations communities with policing services, other than those that are the responsibility of the provinces, we found that the program is sometimes used to replace core services normally provided by the provinces. We also noted that in Ontario the program does not ensure that policing services on first nations reserves meet the standards that apply to policing services elsewhere in the province.
This report also presents our findings about the procurement process used to award the 2009 contract for the government's integrated relocation program. We found that a lack of upfront planning within Public Works and Government Services Canada, National Defence, the RCMP, and the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat led to missed milestones. This affected decisions the organizations had to make and actions they took along the way. While officials took steps to remove some barriers to competition, these steps were not sufficient. As a result, the relocation services contract process did not facilitate access and encourage competition, and only one bid was received.
Given the complexity of the relocation program contract and its significance, this type of procurement requires considerable oversight and input from senior officials.
Public Works and Government Services Canada should work with its client organizations to manage the procurement of relocation services so that there is sufficient oversight and accountability.
Let's turn now to our audit of how Public Works and Government Services Canada monitors specific terms and conditions outlined in the contracts with a third party provider of building management services. We found that monitoring steps are adequately designed, but noted weaknesses in the way they are implemented.
For example, public works did not apply its quality monitoring program—a key contract monitoring step—to over 230 leased buildings, representing 8% of the total space managed under contracts. Such weaknesses reduced the department's assurance that the service provider complied with the contracts.
In our audit of aggressive tax planning, we found that the Canada Revenue Agency has an adequate program to detect, correct and deter non-compliance of certain tax schemes. However, the agency has to continue its work to improve the management of information to run the aggressive tax planning program and to measure its success.
In another audit that looked at how the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency manages and delivers selected transfer payment programs, we found that the agency is not adequately monitoring the contributions it pays out. It does not collect enough information from recipients to know the extent to which they are complying with the requirements set out in their contribution agreements. As a result, the agency does not know the extent to which programs are achieving their intended objectives, nor whether the funding it provides is making a difference to economic development in the north.
When the agency was established in 2009, the government determined that its headquarters would be located in Iqaluit. However, the agency has not been able to fill some key positions in the north, and critical corporate functions continue to reside in the Ottawa liaison office. The agency is updating its human resources plan to guide future recruitment, but it does not have a plan to relocate corporate functions to Iqaluit.
Moving on to our audit of Statistics Canada, we found that the agency applied its framework to ensure the quality of its data products. As Canada's national statistical agency, Statistics Canada generates key information on the country's socio-economic conditions. The information is used by governments, researchers, academics, businesses and non-governmental organizations.
We found that Statistics Canada needs to better understand and address the needs of users outside the federal government, in particular the need for data on small geographic areas and subpopulations.
In 2013, our office performed special examinations of the Laurentian Pilotage Authority and the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation. Neither examination noted any significant deficiencies, though we did recommend some improvements to both organizations' practices. As in past years, our spring report includes the main points of the reports we presented to the boards of these Crown corporations.
As some of these audits show, government can become caught in a cycle reacting to pressures, whether to mitigate capacity concerns in prisons or meet program timelines. Though government should work to provide Canadians with programs and services in a timely fashion, planning should also look beyond the needs of the day. Better long-term planning is achievable in many of the areas we are reporting on today and would improve results for Canadians and make better use of taxpayer dollars.
Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening statement.
We are happy to answer any questions members may have.
Thank you.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr. Ferguson.
As agreed, colleagues, I will now suspend. If we could return immediately after the vote, we will begin our rotation of questions and comments.
We now stand suspended.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Chair, I would like to introduce a motion to extend the committee meeting until the next vote. That would allow us to honour Mr. Ferguson's presence.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Unanimous consent of the committee members is required to extend the committee meeting until the next vote, which would give us time to receive Mr. Ferguson with some dignity and ask him all of the relevant questions. The motion reads as follows:
That, in order to continue the questioning of the witnesses, the Committee continue to sit until 6:00 p.m.
Do we need unanimous consent, Mr. Chair?
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
In other words, you want us to go from 5:30 to 6:30 to make up for the time we lost.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
The difficulty is that anybody who has something scheduled for 5:30 is in trouble if we do this. That doesn't mean we can't do it, but that is the stumbling block when we do these kinds of things, as people plan their days.
It's informal. I haven't gavelled us back yet, so we can have a go at it.
John.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON
Mr. Chair, I think out of respect for our witnesses, who were held hostage this afternoon by our vote, it would probably be appropriate that we first seek if they're prepared to stay, and then we can talk about whether or not we have any interest in going further.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Okay, I'm in your hands.
We don't normally do this. It's not an inappropriate request, but normally we don't, unless there are extremely extraordinary conditions. But I'm in your hands.
Are we ready to gavel the meeting back to order, then? We'll take it up as it comes.
4:25 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
The 25th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts is now back in order.
We have heard from Mr. Ferguson, who has formally presented his report to us. It is now my intention to turn this to our regular rotation, unless there are any interventions prior to starting that.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Chair, I propose that the committee extend its work until 6:00 p.m., which will allow us to receive Mr. Ferguson with all the respect we owe him, to ask him all the questions and get all the answers he wishes to provide.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Fine.
Before we go any further, let's see if Mr. Ferguson and his staff are available.
Are you available, sir?
4:25 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, certainly.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Mr. Chair, we just had a very slow vote, and we're here. Why don't we see where we get first as a committee, and we could always have these kinds of motions.
Monsieur Giguère could perhaps wait until after we've done our full round to see if more time is necessary.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In a way, that means that we are delaying the same discussion. If that is the sine qua non condition we need to obtain unanimous consent, then I agree.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Okay.
At the end of the round, or 5:30, whichever comes first, we'll see where we're at. Okay?