Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was access.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes. In fact, we were satisfied with the way that the department was processing applications through the rehabilitation program.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Right.
When you say “satisfied”, you were particularly looking at the timeliness of it, so what I would reflect back to you is I understand you to say that you were satisfied that the access to mental health services through the rehabilitation program was timely.
4:10 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
In fact, in the conclusion in paragraph 3.68 we say we concluded that Veterans Affairs Canada is facilitating timely access for veterans to the rehabilitation program, and then of course we had our concerns with the disability program.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Correct. I'm going to come to those in a moment.
First, I want to understand whether I am right that many veterans access both the rehabilitation program and the disability program. Again, I'm looking at paragraph 3.20.
4:10 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes.
We had identified that 3,600 veterans were receiving disability benefits under both programs.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Right. So they're not mutually exclusive in other words?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That's right.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I didn't see anywhere that you might have identified how many disability applicants were receiving rehabilitation services. That's sort of the reverse of what you've quoted here. I see how many rehabilitation service applicants were receiving disability, but I don't see the reverse. Do you have the reverse?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I believe it's the same thing. There were simply 3,600 who were in both. So if you want to do a Venn diagram, you've got 1,000 over here, 3,600 in the middle, and then the balance.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you.
Just let me follow that figure. If, in fact, in 2013-14 there were.... I'm sorry. Let me stop because that's not a yearly figure. That's a cumulative figure. My understanding is that there are 12,554 veterans who are receiving disability benefits and of those, 3,600 are also receiving the rehab benefits. Would that be correct then?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I believe, and I'll just make sure Mr. Berthelette agrees with me, there were 16,000 in total: 1,000 of them were only in the rehabilitation program; 3,000 of them were accessing both, and then the balance were just in the disability program. The total of those three numbers was 16,000 I believe.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Okay.
In that balance who were just in the disability program, do you know how many of them were experiencing mental health issues that required mental health services?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
All of them would be, because all of the numbers we are quoting here are veterans who are accessing these programs because of a mental health condition. There would be other veterans accessing the programs for other reasons, but all of these numbers are veterans accessing the programs because of mental health conditions.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Sorry, Mr. Woodworth.
Moving along, we go over now to the Honourable John McCallum, who has joined us. He's not a regular member of the committee, but a veteran of the House.
Good to have you here today, sir. You now have the floor.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm a veteran of the House and I would like to talk about veterans.
Welcome, Mr. Ferguson, and to your colleagues.
Since I'm new here, how much time do I have?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Five minutes, thank you.
I noticed that approximately 65% of the requests that are turned down and appealed are ultimately accepted, and I'm wondering why such a high number. I wonder if it means that the people doing the adjudicating are inadquately trained if two-thirds of them are subsequently overturned, or if Veterans Affairs would have undertaken to train them better, or if there is some other reason for such a high proportion and what they might do to improve it.
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
What we say in paragraph 3.46 is that “we found that Veterans Affairs...knows that most successful reviews and appeals rely on new information or testimony presented by the veteran or the veteran's representative”. So it's a case of, during that appeal process, new information coming forward. We feel that's something the department needs to analyze to determine whether they should be asking for more of that information earlier in the process.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
It would seem to save time and effort if one could include the information in the first question so that it wouldn't have to subsequently appeal. Did it agree to try to do that?
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I believe the department understands and that it's something it has agreed to. Again, it is really just a matter of trying to understand what is coming forward later on that it's not asking for in the regular process but that might help it in the regular process.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
In paragraph 3.54 you say, “Veterans Affairs Canada does not educate family members on possible signs of mental illness.”
Considering prominent cases, such as that of Jennifer Migneault, it would seem a logical thing to do. I wonder if the department explained why it didn't help to educate or inform veterans' families in the past.
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think, essentially, what we found here was that the department did have some outreach activities in place and it was trying to reach people, but it could still make some improvements and it could reach others, particularly with more of an attempt to educate family members. I also think it is at least as important to reach out to family physicians so that they understand these types of conditions for veterans.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
I've noticed something, most recently during question period today, and in this case it was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs who referred to your report as having praised Veterans Affairs. I wonder if you would consider that an adequate characterization of your report.
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think that, as is the case in just about all audits we have done, we have identified some things the department has done well. In particular, we did say that access to the rehabilitation program was timely, but then we identified that there are some things that need to improve. I think, overall, in this audit, given that most of the veterans are trying to access these services through the disability benefit program, I would say there's still a lot the department needs to do to improve its performance.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
I wonder if the department explained why it doesn't trace wait times at operational stress injury clinics.