Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 25th, 2015

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

You might recall Jenny Migneault, who attempted to get the attention of our former Veterans Affairs minister, Julian Fantino. I spoke to Jenny. Her effort really was to try to allow the engagement of spouses in the treatment of a veteran, because they are often affected as well. I'm asking again, Mr. Doiron, can you tell us of any programs that are available in which the spouse, or the children, or the parent, are actually involved in the treatment of a veteran suffering from PTSD?

As well, given our request last year in our report from the committee that those services be available to more than the veteran, that they be available to the spouse, common-law or otherwise, to the child, or to the parent, can you tell us how much has been done since then in order to address those issues and the specific request of Jenny Migneault?

[Michel D. Doiron]

I will not talk about the request from Madam Migneault because these are private files, and I will not discuss any of our veterans' files. I apologize, but....

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You don't have to apologize.

[Michel D. Doiron]

Thank you, sir.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Can you speak about requests like that generally for spouses to be involved?

[Michel D. Doiron]

Absolutely, that part I can. We have added families, because it's a scientifically proven fact with mental health issues that having the family involved—the spouse, the children, the caregivers—often helps in the treatment of the individual.

Our 20 sessions that I talked about are open to family members, not just the veteran. They don't even have to be diagnosed. They can call and get the services just like any veteran. That is effective today. Our OSI clinics encourage families to come, if it's comfortable. It's a family decision. It's not the psychologist or psychiatrist. It's a family decision, right?

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

What if it's not the veteran—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Mr. Valeriote, I'm sorry. Your time has expired.

Mr. Woodworth, you now have the floor, sir.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Doiron, I want to reassure you again, as the chair has said, that you need not apologize for refusing to answer an inappropriate question requiring you to divulge information about a constituent. In fact, the member who asked that question should be apologizing to you.

I also want to address what I believe is a mischaracterization by Mr. Valeriote when he says that there have been two contradictory views offered to us about services: one saying that there are services there, and another saying that there are services that are not there.

Mr. Berthelette, I don't believe you have said that there are services that are not there. In fact, I believe that your report, particularly in paragraph 3.19, says exactly the opposite and reviews the mental health services that are available for veterans. Am I correct in that?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Just so I can be absolutely clear, there are services available to veterans outside of the two programs. Some of these services are emergency-type services. We didn't audit those services, so I'm unable to tell the committee whether people are utilizing those services or whether they know those services are available.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's perfectly fine and accurate. I'm certain that if Mr. Valeriote thinks about it for a few minutes he'll see fit to retract his mischaracterization.

I'd like to go back to where Mr. Giguère left off with Mr. Doiron some time ago, and that's the point that in fact veterans shouldn't have to wait a year to receive mental health supports. I just want to be clear, because as I understand it, we have operational stress injury clinics, we have case management services, we have the 24-7 line, we have the operational stress injury social support program, we have the rehabilitation program, we have in fact mental health supports provided by the service income support insurance plan.

With all of those opportunities out there, Mr. Doiron, is there any reason why a veteran would have to wait a year if he or she asked for mental health supports?

[Michel D. Doiron]

No, sir.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's what I thought. Thank you.

To go back to where you and I left off when I ran out of time, Mr. Doiron, I think I heard you tell me that the rehabilitation program is capable, if needed, of providing necessary mental health supports for veterans through a wait period that might be as long as eight months or a year. Then Mr. Berthelette said, well, the purpose of the rehabilitation program is to reintegrate people into the workforce.

I want to ask you this directly, based on what Mr. Berthelette said. Does the fact that the purpose of the rehabilitation program is to reintegrate veterans into the workforce mean that somehow the mental health supports that the rehabilitation program provides are substandard or will not be adequate to meet the needs of veterans if they happen to be waiting for a disability eligibility decision?

[Michel D. Doiron]

No, sir. When they go into the rehab program, if they are not mentally fit, they will get the mental health services they require prior to their getting into the program of their choice. There are services available there. It's detached from the disability benefit process.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Berthelette, as I understand it, of the 15,000 veterans who are in fact eligible for the disability program mental health supports, about 3,600 of them are also accessing support from the rehabilitation program. Is that correct?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Yes, that's correct.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Is there anything that you can show me, any paragraph in your report, that would contradict what Mr. Doiron has just told me in saying that the mental health supports of the rehabilitation program, which we know are delivered in a timely fashion, are adequate to meet the needs of veterans who access them? Is there any paragraph you can show me where you found evidence to the contrary?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I would just go back to the point I raised earlier, that the rehabilitation program is a separate program from the disability program, with its own requirements. It's to help transition from military to civilian life. It's not a bridge program to provide mental health services to individuals who are having to wait for a decision from the disability program.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Understood, but I don't hear you telling me that the mental health supports offered under the rehabilitation program, if they are accessed at that point in time, would be inadequate for the veterans if they haven't yet been able to access the disability program supports.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Well, we didn't look at the actual programs being delivered, but they can access mental health programs through the rehabilitation program.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

And I—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

No, sorry, time has expired.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Moving over to the official opposition, I understand, Mr. Allen, that you and Mr. Giguère will be splitting the time.

With that, you may kick off.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

I have a really quick question, Mr. Doiron.

In your action plan, page 6, where you're digitizing more records, are we talking about that sense of your being able to have the records, so that they've actually moved from DND to you? Is that what that digitization means?

Thank you. I thought so.

The second part of that would be, it says “Q4 2015-2016”. It's an ongoing process. Is that an end date?