Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 25th, 2015

[Michel D. Doiron]

No, it's an ongoing process.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

It's just an ongoing process, so the next plan may be more quarters of 2016-17, 2017-18, whatever. Do you have an end date in mind, in any sense, at this point?

I recognize it's a dual program. You're both kind of working on this.

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

We'll always have paper records for people who've served before 2011.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

I have to share my time.

It's an ongoing process, fair enough. I just wanted to make sure that I was looking at it correctly.

My last comment, Mr. Chair, is to the Brigadier-General.

I reread your opening statement, and we had this conversation—I don't have time to go through it again—about the numbers. According to what you told us today, 94% of 455 authorized mental health positions are filled as of mid-January. Last year you had a problem because some folks went on parental leave and some folks were on long-term sick leave, but by January you were okay because they'd probably finished their parental and they'd probably come back to work. The fact is that you're short 6%, about 27 full-time spots, give our take.

I hate doing half a person because I'm not sure what that looks like. I know we do FTEs but I always have a problem with what looks like half a person. I know human resource folks do them differently. But if we have some more folks going on parental leave, we may be back to a place where it says that the OTSSCs experienced longer wait times, in fact up to 49 days, based on the fact that they didn't have enough folks.

So, this is what you've told us, in the sense that these are your numbers. If we can't find the full complement, and some folks go off on parental leave—and heaven knows, we certainly want families to have children—it seems to me, we're back where we were last year. It seems unfortunate.

Mr. Giguère.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

As we all know, among veterans, 696 men and 29 women committed suicide

Can you tell me how many of these individuals were waiting for care? If these numbers are compared to those of the Canadian Mental Health Association, your failure represents 400%. Indeed, the suicide rate among veterans is 400% higher than among civilians.

Can you provide an explanation for these numbers?

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

In my opinion, the numbers that you are citing...

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

They're your numbers.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

No, I believe that they are from the Canadian Forces Cancer and Mortality Study: Causes of Death.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Exactly.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

Those numbers covered the period from 1972 to 2006.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

It was from 2006 to 2011. I have the document here with me.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

You said that from 2006 to 2011? In that case, I am not certain of the numbers. I won't be able to confirm them.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

How many of the veterans that you treat are homeless? How many families of veterans are dealing with cases of spousal violence or self-harm? Can you provide us with this information?

You gave us data on the accessibility of care, but we would like to know more about the quality of service delivery.

Do you have statistics or information proving that you are helping to improve services?

[Michel D. Doiron]

We have some numbers, but I don't know whether they include what you are asking for specifically. Even if I don't have this information with me, we know how many of these people are homeless. I will send you this information. However, these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt because they are not absolute numbers. Approximately 700,000 veterans and families are registered in the system. We have 200,000 clients, and our case managers handle 7,200. Honestly, I will say that of the 500,000 individuals, some may well be living on the street. We don't always know. We have data on homelessness and drug addiction, I believe, but I don't have that data with me.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In that case, let's talk about the conclusion of the report. In section 3.64, it says that your department is more interested in the quantity of services and the speed with which they are provided than by their quality and the impacts on the lives of veterans. The report even states that it cannot be determined whether your strategy has borne fruit or whether the mental health needs of veterans are being met.

This problem was already raised in the 2012 report on the transition from military to civilian life. At that time, you said that you would accept all recommendations. However, despite this, three years later, nothing has changed. The same problems that existed in 2012 are reappearing in 2015. They are exactly the same. The only thing that you have done is to decide to calculate the 16 weeks from the moment the file is considered complete rather than the moment the application is submitted.

You have played with the numbers. In fact, you had promised that it would be 16 weeks from the moment when the file was submitted. You promised that in 2012. In 2015, the delay is now 32 weeks and you are giving yourselves six weeks to send a response.

There is a problem in your department. Are you able to correct this problem by yourselves? Do you need the Treasury Board or the Privy Council to give you the resources to correct your problems?

[Michel D. Doiron]

We can correct some of the problems ourselves. I have been in this position for a short time. We have been working on this for the last year.

Don't forget that the waiting period was 24 months just a few years ago. I'm not saying that things are good right now, but they were much worse before. Now, the waiting time is 16 weeks from the moment when we receive the documents. The Auditor General mentioned 32 weeks, and we accepted his assessment. We have had a lot of discussions on this issue because there are a lot of factors at play. But if, at the end of the day, someone calls me and tells me that it's 32 weeks, I accept that.

How should we address this situation? The forms need to be simplified. We have done so, and we will continue to do so because the forms are still too complex. We are working on it, and we have initiatives to achieve our goal.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Don't get me wrong...

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

No, I'm sorry, you may not.

You may conclude.

[Michel D. Doiron]

To answer Mr. Giguère's question, we are working to reduce the processing time to 16 weeks.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you.

Moving along to our last spot, you have the floor, Mr. Hayes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I'd like to go on record as respectfully disagreeing with Mr. Valeriote's position in terms of our unanimous report “The New Veterans Charter: Moving Forward” and his opinion that the government has done virtually nothing. I will go on record as disagreeing with that completely.

Second, I'd again go back to Mr. Valeriote's comments with respect to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board and the appeal process. I just want him to know that prior to his being part of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, we actually undertook a very comprehensive study on the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. Veterans Affairs witnesses were there, and we indeed sought the opinions of several veterans.

I do encourage you to read that report, and I will go on record as maybe forewarning you that we may be having a look at where you are with respect to the recommendations from that report of our Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

That said, I want to step back to Mr. Berthelette for one second.

From the veterans' perspective, you mentioned in your chart 3.4 that there's an up to 16-week period. Within that, you've also stated that there are certain factors that Veterans Affairs can control and there are factors that are outside of their control within that 16-week period. I would like to have an understanding of that. Which is most responsible for that 16-week period—factors within the control of Veterans Affairs or factors outside the control of Veterans Affairs?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, we don't know the answer to that question.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

You made the statement that there were factors outside of the control. Can you identify what factors would be outside of the control of Veterans Affairs that would contribute to that delay?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Some of the factors may be that some of the veterans may not have access to a family physician. It may take time to get the information together that is required to support the physician's analysis or assessment. I don't know; it may take a few sessions to meet with the veteran to determine his or her mental health and to put together an assessment and send it in to Veterans Affairs.

Those are a couple of examples. I'm sure there are other reasons why it may take longer.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'll put the same question to you, Mr. Dorion, in terms of what you think might contribute that's outside of your control. Also—because you'll have the floor and I probably won't get another spot here—I think what is within your control has been identified by the Auditor General in that chart. The application is complex, and it takes time to gather all the required information. That is certainly within your control, so I'd like you to speak to what you've done to rectify that situation. It also says, “Veterans Affairs Canada may advise veteran that the application is incomplete and must be resubmitted”, so it seems to me that would be something within your control as well in terms of ensuring a complete application.

I'd like you to speak to the those, please. Thank you.