Public Accounts Committee on June 14th, 2018

[Jean Goulet]

All I can tell you is that they did not pass on all the information they had.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

On the serious information?

[Jean Goulet]

Yes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

It led to the problem.

[Jean Goulet]

Yes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Ms. Lemay, you said that you didn't think they would agree. You didn't use the present tense to say that's really what these people feel.

Do they feel that gave all the information, yes or no?

[Marie Lemay]

I'm convinced these people feel they haven't misled anyone.

Now we have a lot of information on projects. I don't know exactly what Mr. Goulet considers essential or important. That wasn't part of the discussion. These people would probably tell you that they never intended to pass on the wrong information that made the system not work.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Ms. Lemay, this brings to mind the old adage that you should never lie, but you don't have to reveal everything.

I'm not calling these people liars, what I'm saying is that they had serious and important information, and they did not give it. In fact, I'm not the one saying this; it's the Auditor General. Is that correct or not?

[Marie Lemay]

I don't know because I wasn't there.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I think the best way to find out is to allow these three people to tell us their side of the story. Do you agree with that?

[Marie Lemay]

It isn't up to me to answer that. I don't know what to tell you.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

We must shed light on the next steps surrounding this essential, important and pivotal issue. I remind you of what I told you earlier, that there is nothing personal about this. How can we make the right decisions if we don't have the right information?

[Marie Lemay]

Mr. Deltell, I would ask the committee to think carefully about this: to think that two or three people have succeeded, voluntarily or involuntarily, in causing the situation we find ourselves in today, which is a catastrophic failure, is really to simplify things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[Marie Lemay]

It's a complex project with many—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Deltell, we can maybe come back.

We'll now go to Mr. Arya, please, for five minutes.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Lemay, I would like to focus on the IBM report, which said that it would take $274 million against the budgeted amount of $155 million. When IBM submitted that report, I think the executives informed the deputy minister, correct?

[Marie Lemay]

I'm not certain about that.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

You didn't check that, it being such a big thing, that project going ahead with just 55% of the expected expenditure, and the executives didn't discuss that with the then deputy minister.

[Marie Lemay]

You'll just remember that I was not there. I'm saying that—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Didn't you find out whether they discussed that with the deputy ministers?

[Marie Lemay]

I've been so focused on fixing the pay issue since I've arrived that I've just started to be able to look at putting in best practices to make sure that we don't.... The details about—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I'm sorry, it's not the details. If you are to trace back all the problems we have with Phoenix today, it goes back to this fundamental basic decision of going ahead with this project with just 55% of the required amount.

[Marie Lemay]

The budget was approved.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

The budget was approved for $155 million. IBM said $274 million. These executives, without discussing with the deputy ministers, at least in my view, they couldn't go ahead.