Evidence of meeting #105 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phoenix.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Certainly, we said that the people responsible put the emphasis on delivering the project within time and on budget.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Okay.
Now, who determines the timelines and the costs of these projects?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The part that was driving most of the timeline was the fact that the compensation advisers were being let go, so there was a—
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I believe it was in 2014. I could give you the proper dates. There were three waves, but it was around that date that the letters were sent out.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Did you not have the human resources at the time to continue with the old program?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
That's correct.
The cost is established through a process where you go to the Treasury Board, you get approval, and then you have your authorities to work within those envelopes to deliver a project.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Sorry, you just said that basically, you had to go to the Treasury Board to ask for more money.
Do you recall if the minister went to the Treasury Board to ask for more money? Obviously, the cost and timelines were not sufficient for the project.
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Again, I wasn't—
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
—there, but I do know the decision was made to work within the budget and not ask for more.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Because we worked within the budget....
Mr. Ferguson, do you agree that they decided at that point to curtail the system tests, remove the critical pay functions, and forgo a pilot implementation of the system because they didn't have the means to do it?
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
They made those decisions. As we explained in the report, they had an original IT budget of $155 million. When they went to IBM to say what they wanted the system to do, IBM said it would cost $274 million. That was when the project executives decided to reduce the functionality in the system, to not do the pilot project, and those types of things—at that point in time.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Again, who decides on the budget? I just want to make sure I fully understand that.
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Again, the budget would have been approved by Treasury Board when the project was approved.
To me, though, the fundamental issue here was that the department, in my estimation, had a responsibility to go back to Treasury Board either to ask for more money or to tell Treasury Board that the project would not deliver the $70 million a year in savings that it had originally been predicted to produce. One way or another, they should have gone back to Treasury Board.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Fine.
When we talk about Treasury Board—just for the Canadian population out there—I hear that it's the bureaucrats that need to go to Treasury Board and ask for more money. From what I've learned—and the Clerk of the Privy Council told us—the minister is the one responsible for asking for more money from the Treasury Board, not the deputy ministers.
Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
That is correct.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
The minister is the one who is responsible to go and ask for more money at Treasury Board, not the deputy ministers.
I know I'm making you repeat this, but it's unclear. I just want to make sure.
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The request is made by the minister to the ministers at the Treasury Board.
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Maybe the Treasury Board might be able to give you more on the process.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
The budget was never increased to make sure...and so it was curtailed.
All the tests, checks, and balances that you, Mr. Ferguson, have stated needed to be put in to make sure the project was successful they didn't do, because obviously, we can conclude, they didn't have the budget to do this and they never went back to Treasury Board to ask for more money to make sure that these measures were all put in place.
Is that correct, Mr. Ferguson?
4:20 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Again, yes, they decided to cut back on the functionality, and as the product progressed, the importance of those functions that they had decided to cut back on became more and more evident. They should have been able to realize that cutting out things like being able to pay people retroactively was going to have a significant effect on the performance of the system.
