Evidence of meeting #105 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phoenix.
A video is available from Parliament.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I believe that two of three of these executives reported directly to the deputy minister.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
In short, two of three of these executives work for Public Services and Procurement Canada, which is currently under the responsibility of Ms. Lemay.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
They reported to the deputy minister. All three of them were department employees. I thought your question was aimed at finding out whether these executives reported directly to the deputy minister.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
What I want to know is whether those three people are coming from the department.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
All three of them were department employees.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
These next questions are for you, Ms. Lemay, since it's under your responsibility. I'm aware that you weren't in the position at that time. I also want you to know that there's nothing personal here. I just want to know what happened, and who messed things up. I'm not interested in the names of these people. I want to know what they did, what they are doing and what they could still do.
Ms. Lemay, are these three people still working for the Government of Canada?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Two of these three people still are. I would like to clarify one thing. Mr. Ferguson said that two of the senior officials reported directly to the deputy minister. This was not the case for the third, who is an executive in Public Services and Procurement Canada.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Two of three of these people are still working for the Government of Canada.
What about the third person?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
That person isn't working for the Government of Canada.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The person retired.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Okay.
What are the two people who are still working for the Government of Canada doing?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Both of them still work for our department.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
What do they do?
Mr. Chair, I'll repeat that it's not the people I'm interested in; it's what they did, what they are doing and what they might do again. What we're talking about is extremely serious. I'm recalling Mr. Ferguson's words—not my own. These people did not mention certain serious problems they were aware of. All of this stems from that.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Deltell, I will answer your questions, but I would like you to understand the following. Both of the executives who reported to the deputy minister made mistakes. We know that, the Auditor General said it. However, he also said that there were flaws in governance and oversight. In targeting two or three people, we may well lose sight of the other lessons learned.
These people still work for my department. If I tell you their positions, you will easily be able to find out who they are. If you want, I can send you this information in writing.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
What worries me a bit is knowing that these people still have a job at the Government of Canada, despite the fact that they didn't mention certain serious problems. As a taxpayer and a representative of the people, I am worried about that.
Ms. Lemay, you said that the priority was given to costs and timelines. How is this related to the fact that these people didn't mention certain serious problems they were aware of? They knew what was happening, and they knew that it was serious, but they said nothing about it.
What is the link between that and the fact that you weren't aware of either the costs or the timelines, because time was an issue?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I do not really have the same information as Mr. Ferguson on that. In any case, these people were evaluated. There weren't any bad intentions behind it. Nobody acts like this so that the system doesn't work. The fact remains that these people were evaluated, and they suffered the consequences.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
First, they did not receive any performance pay that year for implementing the system.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Federal government executives often have more than one project, yet these people did not get any performance pay. Furthermore, they are no longer working in the pay section.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Some penalty that is! These people changed sections, but have the same function, the same salary, the same benefits and the same pension. Is that it?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No, not necessarily.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Okay.
Earlier, you said something relatively serious. You said that you didn't really agree with Mr. Ferguson's findings.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Actually, I didn't say that.