Public Accounts Committee on May 30th, 2019

[Paul Glover]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity.

In looking at 221 call centres, I think it was assumed at the beginning that a call centre is a call centre and that the technology would be consistent and the same. However, as we moved through this experience, we realized that we needed to be more precise, to roll out technologies that were appropriate to the call centres and to better take into account the existing technology. That is how we learned the lessons necessary to be able to move and scale quickly.

One of the things we tried to do in de-scoping this project, to start with just those eight, was to learn those lessons so as not to disrupt service to all 221 call centres concurrently. This means making sure that we take a prudent approach, manage the risk, learn the lessons and scale up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Glover.

We'll now move to Mr. Arya, please, for five minutes.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since this is the last public hearing, I would like to place on the record my sincere appreciation of Mr. David Christopherson for his long, long years of service, especially on this public accounts committee. We have had differences of opinion on several issues on several occasions but I do recognize the great work you have done in this public accounts committee—the most important committee.

General Natynczyk, I have to say that the services from Veterans Affairs Canada have improved tremendously during the last three and a half years. I have in Nepean a veterans advisory committee. One of the committee members is Ted Bransfield, who has personally assisted 387 members, to be exact, since they submitted their claims. He too is of the opinion that the service has improved.

From the cuts that your department had faced to this position, I think it's only because of a kind of frank acceptance. Whenever there was a shortcoming, I have seen that you don't hesitate to accept it and take remedial measures.

Ms. MacDonald, I am tempted today to talk on a slightly different subject. The CBC reported today that the lawsuits related to parental reunification have been settled and those people who went to the court have been given the option of applying—whereas hundreds of my constituents didn't get the same opportunity.

However, we are on a different subject so I can't deal with that.

Coming back, Mr. Flack, you mentioned that you had done the client experience survey, which found that 82% of the respondents were either satisfied or very satisfied. One of the previous Auditor General's reports on CRA call centres noted that the Auditor General conducted a study that found 36% of the answers provided by the agents were wrong.

Did your survey do that?

[Leslie MacLean]

I'm happy to speak to that.

I'll separate your question about quality from your question about client experience.

We monitor the quality and accuracy of our agents' answers on a regular basis. We have an ongoing program of sampling. Every one of our—

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

What percentage of answers have you found to be incorrect?

[Leslie MacLean]

I think about 86% of the answers were found to be correct.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Fourteen per cent of the answers were incorrect. That's still a big number, especially because, as a citizen, when I call, I take whatever the agent says as the gospel truth and I do or don't take action based on what I've been told.

[Leslie MacLean]

I agree.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

With my limited time, I would like to go to the Shared Services Canada.

Mr. Glover, I had interactions with you when you were the president of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, but Shared Services Canada is a different kind of animal.

As a member of Parliament in the national capital region, I hear from a lot of people working in government departments. One of the things I've heard about Shared Services is that it's so big and so complex. We are seeing that here, you know. Only eight of the 222 call centres have been done. This has been going on for years.

It's too big and too complex. One of the things I've heard is that your department is facing a problem with respect to human resources, that you are unable to find qualified technical personnel based on the rigid language requirements. Is that a fact?

[Paul Glover]

I would start by saying the government's IT infrastructure is absolutely large and complex because of the very diverse nature of the services the departments provide, from the Department of National Defence to Veterans Affairs to the RCMP to highly operational border security guards. We support a large, complex ecosystem. We're working very hard to simplify and make that more robust and reliable moving forward.

With respect to attracting personnel, we have been able to attract more personnel. The budget has provided room for us to grow. We have been successfully attracting talent.

There is, frankly, going to be a very competitive marketplace for new technologies, like cloud computing, where Shared Services, just like any other large corporation, will be competing for limited highly skilled resources. We're making sure that we're able to do that. We're positioned well, working with business partners to ensure we have the technology to support that large, complex ecosystem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Arya and Mr. Glover.

We'll now move on and welcome Mr. Blaney to our committee.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for having me at this committee.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you, since this may also be one of your last committee meetings as a politician. We have had the opportunity to serve the public together.

I am happy to be here this morning.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Christopherson.

Mr. Christopherson, keep your passion, we need this. I hope that the newcomers who will follow you will have the same passion. This morning, you expressed your indignation to us and, basically, we are here to reflect it. I must say I share it too.

Mr. Ricard, you tell us that it is very difficult to reach the government by phone. You tell us that it's like a funnel, people hang up, calls are transferred to automated systems: it's a real obstacle course.

Finally, as my colleague said, the system does not seem to be designed to meet the needs. We know this because it is our offices that people ultimately call when they cannot reach a government agency. That is what is happening. Fortunately, sometimes we call and obtain a little service.

In my opinion, the problem seems to me to be a leadership problem. There are many call centres, but everyone works somewhat in isolation.

This is my first question. What do you think of the comments that were made this morning?

I would also like to hear from you about the feedback you have received as a result of the initiatives that are being taken. Some of them are very interesting.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Thank you for the question.

I will start by talking about the action plans that have been submitted to us by organizations.

For the most part, I will also be able to respond to the opening comments. Acceptance of a problem, as mentioned earlier, is a large part of the solution. The potential solutions we see in the action plans are encouraging.

However, an action plan is just a plan. As long as it is not implemented, it does not solve any problems.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Yes.

[Sylvain Ricard]

My message is that this is encouraging, but until the problems are resolved, the situation is no better than before.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you.

One of the things I was pleased to hear about is the initiative that Veterans Affairs Canada is going to put in place, a teletypewriter for the hearing impaired. I congratulate you on that, General Natynczyk.

There is also the electronic cabinet initiative. As a former minister, I can tell you that the quantity of documents we need is astounding. The computerization of documents is therefore a great initiative.

I also liked what you said, Mr. Flack.

You mentioned the accessibility rate for agents. I would like to hear more from you on this subject. Ultimately, when someone calls the government, they want a result.

Could you tell us a little bit about it? You have in fact made some interesting improvements.

Then, if I have time left, I would like to come back to the issue of leadership. This morning, it really seems to me that both Treasury Board and Shared Services Canada are a two-headed monster. In order for there to be leadership, a concrete vision, the message I am sending you this morning is that you must work together. As we have seen, there are many call centres that are not necessarily coordinated. Standards are the issue here.

Can you tell us about your agent accessibility rate?

[Leslie MacLean]

I am going to start, and if Mr. Flack has something to add, I will give him the floor.

I would just like to talk about the progress we have made in terms of accessibility to our call centres for employment insurance, for example. Thanks to the investments Mr. Flack mentioned, we were able to increase our accessibility rate from 36% in 2015-2016 very quickly, and reached 65% in the past year.

This is therefore a fairly significant improvement curve, because we have been able, thanks to the investments, to add hundreds of new agents to better respond to Canadians' calls. I would add that the Auditor General did not consider the systems we have in place for self-service, a system where people do not need to talk to an agent.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I see.

[Leslie MacLean]

With regard to our call centres, for example for employment insurance, 65% of the people who called us were able to use self-service without even having to talk to anyone. In this case, the accessibility rate is 100%.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I see.

[Graham Flack]

Technology has made quite a difference. Under the old system, the number of people who could be online at the same time was limited. With the new systems—two out of three have been implemented—the participation rate is 100% to date. This includes a major system for pension funds. Since its implementation on May 11, it has been possible to contact an agent in 100% of cases.

There is another important difference. We have call centres across the country. The old system did not allow us, when someone was on the line, to forward a call from Newfoundland to Toronto if there was an opportunity to do so. This will allow us to make better use of our resources. This is a huge difference. With respect to employment insurance, it is expected that the system will be implemented in the fall.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Blaney.

Madame Mendès is next, please.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I hope that our last meeting will be public, because it is on this occasion that we will honour you. I would like to thank you and Mr. Christopherson, as vice-chair. It has been a pleasure working with both of you. I learned a lot from Mr. Christopherson.

You have led our committee with great skill.

Clearly, I'm going to necessarily disagree with Mr. Christopherson. I don't think we are trying to hide anything as a government. In this instance, I will speak as a member of the government party.

I think the questions of the estimates and the credits, we will discuss it a little later on, but it's not trying to hide anything, it's trying to manage. We will get back to it.

With regard to the issue before us, in order to solve important problems, people wanted to ensure that a certain part of the public, who were not prepared for online services, would still adopt this approach, by eliminating the telephone option. I am not only talking about the government, but also about society as a whole, whether it is banks or store services. We forgot that many people still need the telephone. I find that outrageous.

In terms of this idea that you could ship everybody to services online suddenly and that you would shut down your call centres, and you don't need people to call you because it's online, not everybody goes online. This mentality or this philosophy, or whatever you want to call it, which has, unfortunately, infected all of our society because it's at all levels, private and public, is.... What we see now is that government has an even bigger responsibility of ensuring that citizens are able to reach it, but we tried too quickly to put everything online without preparing the population for it. There is an enormous mass of citizens who will never use online services and who will always need a phone call.

I would like all of you, if at all possible, to give me your feeling on that when you look at the service-centric mission you have given yourselves after this report.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Mendès.

We have noticed one thing about our veterans.

They go from 18 years old to 100 years old, and we know across all of them that the call centres are the number one method that they would like to use to contact us, but we also know there's a lot of 100-year-olds who love their iPads. They send us emails all the time.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I salute you and I do salute your department for what you have done.