Public Accounts Committee on June 13th, 2019

[Sylvain Ricard]

If you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I'll ask Mr. Hayes to answer that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Hayes, welcome.

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The power to issue a special report is in the Auditor General Act. We have never used that. It's been there since 1977, and we've never used that power. It is something that we considered in this context; however, I have to say, with the support of the committee in the hearings that we've had over the DRR and the DP, quite frankly, it's this kind of dialogue from the committee that we would have hoped for in response to a special report.

From my perspective at this point, it wouldn't be necessary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

We'll now move to Mr. Richards, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I guess at the end of the day what really matters with probably almost any policy, but certainly when we're looking at something like this, is what impact it has on taxpayers. What does it mean for everyday Canadians?

You've laid out quite clearly some of the challenges that you're facing and the fact that you're not able to perform some of the audits that you would wish you could perform. Some of the challenges you're facing from being unable to get new technologies, to train staff to today's levels....

Maybe give us a sense as to what that means for everyday Canadians. What does it mean for taxpayers if you can't perform some of these audits? What is the impact going to be on taxpayers?

[Sylvain Ricard]

First of all, if you don't mind, I'll use some of your time, before I forget, to thank this committee for the support that has been provided to the office over the years. We're very thankful for that.

Second, I want to be very clear. We will invest in training, in technology and in all of those challenges. We will do that. We have no choice. We can't do our audit work without respecting quality standards.

What does it mean? Hopefully that will answer some of your questions. It will also mean that, because of having no choice in this regard, we have to reduce the number of performance audits. Those are the audits, like the ones we submitted recently on call centres, protecting the RCMP officers and asylum claims, that we are reducing significantly.

We have no choice. We will invest in those other things where we are facing challenges. We have no choice, but we have to self-fund that. The only place where we can reduce is in performance audits.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Given that, and given the fact that we have a government that's expanded the size of government quite considerably and has plans to continue to do that with some pretty major further expansions, what is that going to mean in the future? What kind of impact will that have over the next few years to your ability to do the core functions of your job? You've already outlined, of course, the issue of your ability to do some of these other audits. What will that mean for taxpayers in the end? I don't know if we got to that. What's the impact on the everyday Canadian?

[Sylvain Ricard]

First of all—and we've had those discussions before—our audit process for performance audits is very rigorous and risk based. We're trying to select the audits that will have the most impact on people. I just referred a few minutes ago to a concrete example that we just did, and we like to think—as we've heard from this committee and other sources—that they are very important and useful audits because they impact Canadians directly.

I know I'm repeating myself here, but I'll mention call centres again. We need to bring that forward. We need to help the system to improve on things, so ultimately those audits are directly linked to the impacts on Canadians. That's how we select those audits. We do our best to select audits that will ultimately have an impact on people.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Would you say that's at the heart of what your main concern is here, the fact that it is going to have an impact on Canadians with the government increasing in size and your not being able to perform some of those audits you'd like to perform? You're saying there's going to be a direct impact on Canadians. Is that the heart and the core of the concerns you have around the inability to get the increases you need? Would that be a fair statement?

[Andrew Hayes]

To build on what Mr. Ricard said, and to acknowledge that you're correct, government program spending has increased significantly over the last five years. In 2015, it was approximately $253 billion. In 2020, it's almost $329 billion. For us to look at all that extra money that's being spent using taxpayers' dollars, that matters.

When we have to make difficult choices on the types of audits we select—we've explained that we had to drop audits on cybersecurity and protecting Canada's north—those aren't easy decisions, because if we had chosen to drop other audits, part of our population would be disappointed that we're not looking into those things too.

I hope that answers the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You're 20 seconds over.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll now go to Mr. Whalen, please.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sorenson.

Speaking of the work plan for 2019-20, what performance audits will you do?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Thomas, welcome back.

[Casey Thomas, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

With respect to the audits that we are planning to—

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Just the performance ones.

[Casey Thomas]

Yes, just the performance ones. We only have one more audit planned for this year, 2019, dealing with respect in the workplace. We're going to be doing three audits next spring: supplying the Canadian Forces; immigration detention and removal; and student financial assistance.

We're currently in the process of determining what we'll be carrying out in the fall of 2020. The other product that we will be producing is an update on results measures. We're looking at a new product to follow up observations that we've made in the past. As opposed to doing complete follow-up work, we're doing more focused work. It's a way to be a little more efficient and effective because we don't have the funding to do full audits.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Great. Thank you very much.

[Casey Thomas]

I can also talk about the commissioner's work, if you like.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

No, this is perfect.

Mr. Leswick, with respect to that, are there other departments or agencies within government that have the mandate to look at the results and measures that Ms. Thomas says the Auditor General wants to have a project on instead of cybersecurity and Arctic sovereignty, and that might be better positioned to do that work?

[Nicholas Leswick]

I'm out of my depth on that one. I don't know if I could identify an organization that would do the work.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Within Treasury Board is there someone—

[Nicholas Leswick]

I don't know if you're asking the right guy, to be honest.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

That's fair enough.

Maybe Mr. Christopherson was right: maybe you were thrown to the wolves a little today.