Public Accounts Committee on April 24th, 2018

[Michael Ferguson]

Yes. We follow two steps when we examine the budget, we do this in two ways. I mentioned in my statement that we have a budget for the number of hours, for instance from 6,000 to 8,000 hours, but we also plan to table the report at a certain date. In the case of these performance audits, we follow a process that determines whether we respect those aspects of our budget, that is to say the number of hours and the deadline.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

If you do the math, $92 million for 88 reports means more than $1 million per report.

Is that correct?

[Michael Ferguson]

Yes. The cost of each of our performance audits—I believe we produced a report on this—is approximately $1 million to $1.4 million. There are various financial audits—some are of less scope than others—but there's also the audit of the financial statements of the Government of Canada. Out of all our audits, that is the most expensive. For performance audits, I think the average is $1 million to $1.4 million per audit.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I have another point to raise with you, but we will have the opportunity of getting to it later.

Do you sometimes hire freelance expert consultants? Of course, you are dealing with the entire federal administration, from prisons to airports. Not everyone is familiar with how airports or prisons work. What measures do you take to ensure that the person is neutral and objective?

[Michael Ferguson]

There are several aspects to your question.

Our performance auditors have various skills. For instance, we have engineers and lawyers. These people have mastered a given field, but they are not professional chartered accountants. There are professional chartered accountants who do performance audits, but there are also auditors who possess other skills that allow them to examine different areas.

To complete an audit, it is also important to obtain the help of other people, for instance actuaries or other professionals. Our office does not have expertise in those areas, and it is important that we hire those people. They must also be independent and objective, and we have an assessment process that allows us to ensure that.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ferguson.

Ms. Moore, you have seven minutes.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to talk about your objectives. You have trained and kept a qualified, committed and bilingual labour force. And I also want to congratulate you on your French. You had already made a great deal of progress and I see that you are continuing to do so. I' m going to take the opportunity to ask a question on language skills.

With regard to principals, we see that the target was not reached. The figure is 89%; two principals did not meet the linguistic requirements.

Could you provide us with further explanations? Is there a training plan for those two people? Do you believe that they will meet the linguistic requirements by the next fiscal year?

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll begin the answer, and Ms. Seally can give you more details.

A few years ago, we observed that the principals who had the responsibility of supervising other people did not have second-language skills, particularly French. Three years ago, we implemented a strategy to have all of the principals and assistant auditor generals develop competency in both languages. We are continuing this work in order to improve our capacity in both languages, but of course we still have work to do.

I am going to ask Ms. Seally to provide some details.

[Susan Seally, Principal, Human Resources, Office of the Auditor General]

As you know, there are three aspects you must master to be perfectly bilingual and speak both languages fluently: oral communication, and reading and writing. Some people may have a bit more trouble reaching the CBC level. When we say that a principal has not reached the necessary level, that probably involves only one of those aspects, and it does not mean that he or she is not able to do the work on a daily basis. That said, I can assure you that those who have not reached the necessary level regarding those three aspects are taking language training.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Perfect. That answers my question.

According to the departmental plan, you carried out a comparative gender-based analysis plus—GBA+—as part of your governance structure activities. According to that analysis, a detailed GBA+ implementation plan was not necessary.

What allowed you to determine that this was not needed? Could you tell us how many men and women work at the Office of the Auditor General?

[Susan Seally]

Regarding the distribution between men and women, women make up 62.5% of our work force.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I see. So that is the reason why you determined that the analysis was not necessary at this time.

[Susan Seally]

In order to have a balance, we would need to have more men.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I wanted to know why you had made that determination. That's fine. That answers my question.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

We'll let the bells ring.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd like to know what impact the Phoenix pay system has had on your office. Did it affect employee absences? Were your employees greatly impacted, or was the Office of the Auditor General one of the lucky ones that was not greatly affected? Could you give us a picture of the situation?

[Michael Ferguson]

Yes. I will answer the question first, but I will ask Ms. Seally to provide more details.

Of course, our employees are affected by the Phoenix pay system, but our situation may be a bit different. We have other ways of managing those problems, but almost all of our employees were affected by the Phoenix issues. We have ways of managing and solving those problems. Moreover, we reacted a bit faster than other organizations.

Ms. Seally can give you more details on that.

[Susan Seally]

We were quite lucky, because one of our teams, made up of our employees, handles the pay service. When Phoenix was implemented some time ago, we realized that this had greatly changed the pay operations. We increased the number of people who work in that department by 40% in order to ensure that things would be done properly. Our employees are affected, but not as much as in the rest of the public service.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So the pay problems did not cause a massive number of departures toward the private sector, for instance?

[Susan Seally]

What I can tell you is that every year we examine our retention level, and it has remained generally stable year after year. I don't have statistics about the year that ended March 31, but it is about the same thing every year. So we did not see departures.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Very well, thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

You still have 40 seconds.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

According to the departmental plan, the Office of the Auditor General is facing capacity pressure in several areas, including Corporate Services and Audit Operations. That situation is affecting your ability to deliver essential services and meet compliance requirements, and it is affecting employee morale.

Could you tell me more about how this is affecting employee morale?

[Susan Seally]

At this time?

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.