Public Accounts Committee on April 20th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Make it a very short answer, Mr. Stewart. I'm sorry.

[Iain Stewart]

Okay.

There is a set of criteria and a system through which event acceleration, or escalation, occurs, as you're referring to, sir. In the case of GPHIN, as the Auditor General has noted, it happened more slowly than it ought to have happened, so part of our work going forward is revisiting the system. Again, the Auditor General has mentioned that the people who are running it are trained and understand the processes and are applying them.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

We're still not at level four.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

I will now be moving on to Ms. Yip for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you to all of the witnesses for coming and answering questions on this important report.

Ms. Hogan, recommendation 8.65 states the following:

The Public Health Agency of Canada should finalize the improvements to its information technology infrastructure to facilitate the collection of timely, accurate, and complete surveillance information from provinces and territories, both during and after the COVID-19 pandemic. The agency should establish timelines for the completion of these improvements.

How serious are these problems related to the agency's IT infrastructure? Does this situation require a major overhaul, or can this be accomplished with smaller modifications?

[Karen Hogan]

In the paragraph that you're referencing, we were recommending improving the IT infrastructure around the gathering and assessment of health surveillance data, an item that had been flagged for many years as having some issues in the agency.

We saw throughout the audit that the data that comes from the provinces comes in inconsistent formats, and in some instances, incompatible formats. We saw that information needed to be cut and pasted, or it was difficult for it to be converted to meet the requirements of the system being used at the agency.

We also saw that the IT system lacked some of the capacity to handle the volume they were expecting to receive of health data throughout this crisis.

It's about making sure that you have a clear understanding with provincial and territorial counterparts about what data, and how you're going to share that data, and then making sure that the system has the capacity to treat it all. It wasn't about the broader systems within the agency, but really about the one linked to health surveillance. I do think it's a key and essential component in formulating the response to a pandemic, especially one like COVID-19, which has evolved and changed so much throughout the past year.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes, I think it's very important to be able to collect that data accurately and quickly. Do you feel that there are enough resources there?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that throughout the audit we saw them responding and trying to adjust. Ultimately, the question about whether they have enough resources, whether monetary or human, to deal with a change in an IT system is one better asked of the deputy minister of the agency.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

In terms of timeliness, do you feel this is something that needs to be looked at urgently?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it's an essential part of being better prepared. If anything, what we've learned is the importance and value of being better prepared for a crisis, whether it be a health crisis or a major weather catastrophe that has impacts on individuals. I think you just need to be better prepared, and having the tools to better support you is essential. It should be part of the whole lessons learned session that the agency is going to do and then acted on in a timely way.

These are issues that have been raised as far back as 1999. It really is time to put in the manpower and the money to fix it, so that in the next crisis we're not in reactive mode but a little bit ahead of the game.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thanks for answering that 20-year-old, decades-old problem.

Moving on to Mr. Stewart, after undergoing the audit from the OAG, what is PHAC doing differently in this third wave compared with the first and second waves?

[Iain Stewart]

In a way, we're trying to evolve strands of activity that started. For us, the pandemic is a continuous process. As the virus and the behaviour of the variants of concern of the virus evolve, it poses new challenges for us.

I'll give you an example, Mr. Chair. If you think about the initial establishment of quarantine, we subsequently went on to add testing before someone arrives at the border; then testing when they arrive and then the government-approved accommodations to hold people until we have their test results. Then we established the day 10 testing, because the variants of concern were suggesting perhaps more infectious arriving travellers and we needed to better know what was coming into the country. As you see, it's an evolution of response in relation to the severity of what was happening within the pandemic.

We're trying to learn from various sources like the Auditor General's report and the independent review of GPHIN, for instance, and many other comments, questions and studies. We're trying to evolve how we're doing what we're doing in real time, as the pandemic evolves.

Hopefully, that answered your question, Member.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I'm sorry, Ms. Yip, but your time is up. We've gone a bit over time.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I know it goes very quickly.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It does.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

We will now move on to our next round of questioning of two and a half minutes, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Stewart.

Mr. Stewart, it's plain to see that the Auditor General's report is quite damning to your organization. I appreciate that you have made efforts to correct the situation. I don't think we can expect anything less. However, unless I am mistaken, I do not recall your organization making any requests to increase its IT budget. I understand that it may be a little late and that we are already experiencing the impacts and consequences of these choices, but we need to act preemptively now.

Have you costed your needs in this regard? Have you detailed your plan of action in terms not only of budget, but also resource allocation, to ensure this never happens again?

[Iain Stewart]

We have actually done, as you're suggesting, investments in this area.

We created, for instance, a chief data officer and a vice-president for information, and we also created a team around better organizing how we work with the provinces and territories on data, so to your point, yes, we have begun to increase resources in this area.

Secondly, to your question, sir, through the fiscal and economic snapshot in the fall, we did get additional resources to help us do these kinds of actions.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for the clarifications, Mr. Stewart.

Your agency has long been considered a world leader in terms of global risk prevention and analysis. We can say that this is certainly not the case today, and indeed your image has unfortunately been tarnished.

To what extent do you take responsibility for the Auditor General's finding?

How do you believe you can regain your credentials?

[Iain Stewart]

That's a daunting question. Thank you for that.

First of all, I'm accountable for all things that occur within the agency under my authorities, and so, yes, I do take accountability in that regard.

Second, it is an area where I believe we have to be a leader, as you say, and based on the recommendation and advice of the Auditor General, we will be helped in better organizing how we do this function. I'm looking forward to a renewal of our activities in this area, and we have plans in place to do so.

I have with me the vice-president, who leads in this area as well, if we have any detailed questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I'm sorry, but our time is up. Hopefully we'll get more answers throughout this testimony today.

I will now move on to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to dive into paragraph 8.82 of the Auditor General's report. This deals with the 24-hour rapid risk assessments, and it reads:

the agency prepared a series of 24-hour rapid risk assessments, using a methodology that was in a pilot phase of implementation and had not yet been formally evaluated or approved. Furthermore, the assessments were designed to assess the risk of a disease outbreak at a specific point in time and were meant to trigger more thorough risk assessments. We found that the methodology was not designed to assess the likelihood of the pandemic risk posed by a disease like COVID-19 and the potential impact were it to be introduced to Canada.

My question is for Mr. Stewart.

Even if PHAC were using COVID to test drive a new methodology, why didn't your agency also follow its established procedure? It seemed that essentially you were test driving a new methodology but you had nothing to compare it with in order to know if the new methodology was producing accurate results.

How did you know that the new methodology was going to provide the required thoroughness if you didn't have that comparable?

[Iain Stewart]

The pandemic has presented us with challenges and strains at each step of the way, for which we didn't necessarily have something that responded to that specific instance, and so we experimented. In this instance, this was staff trying to find a tool that would help us deal with the challenge of the moment.

As we make our way through this pandemic, we'll find things that worked well for us and then things that did not, and so experimentation sometimes doesn't result in the best outcome.

In this instance, people were using a tool to try to deal with a situation at a moment in time, and we learned from that.