Public Accounts Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Or, if you like, you could give that to us in writing. I know that I've given to respond to in one question. I apologize for that.

Thank you.

[Karen Hogan]

I can do it in writing in order to keep us on time, absolutely.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you so much.

We will now go to our next round of questioning—our first round in the second hour, I guess—starting with Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus for six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. I thank the witnesses for being here.

My first question is for the representatives of the Public Health Agency of Canada.

I would like to talk about airport screening. I have a report in front of me from your website that has some pretty disturbing numbers. In two weeks, from April 5 to 17, 117 international flights that landed in Canada had people on board who were infected with COVID-19 or COVID-19 variants. Thus, it can be estimated that a few hundred infected individuals arrived in the country as a result.

Can you explain to me how it is that infected people could have been on 117 planes that landed in Canada, when all passengers are, in principle, required to provide a negative test before takeoff?

[Iain Stewart]

It is a question of volumes. We've had about 193,000 people come to Canada by air since we established the new border measures. There are three tests. As you point out, there is the first test. It may be that they had a faulty test. It may be that the test was inaccurate. In some instances, which Transport Canada has pursued, it might be that the documents were not in fact accurate.

They have the pre-arrival test. Once they get off the plane, after they've gone through my colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency, they come to us for a discussion of their quarantine plan and they go and get the on-arrival test. The on-arrival test is very important because, as you point out, we're catching people who are in fact COVID-positive. If they're COVID-positive, we take a genetic sample from that test and sequence it to determine what they're COVID-positive with, what variant it is. Then they go into quarantine. In the quarantine, they have their third test.

To your point, some people do arrive, and that's why we have that second and third test.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'll come back to this later.

In the report, I see that between April 5 and April 17, there were a huge number of flights from Delhi, India, via Air India. To me, that sets off loud alarm bells.

Is Air India asking passengers to provide a test or is this airline ignoring our rules and regulations? Do you have an easy answer to this question?

[Iain Stewart]

The question about whether Air India is responding to the rules and so on would probably be better put to my colleagues at Transport Canada, who are responsible for that aspect. It may also be that there are problems with the testing or the standards of testing. We are investigating to see that we're using the right testing standards.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to go back to what you were saying earlier about testing. We can take for granted that some countries or airlines are not doing their job, but what is done when passengers arrive in Canada? Let's take the example of an Air India flight arriving in Canada. If passengers in three rows of seats test positive when they arrive, what do you do? Do you put those people in isolation?

I am trying to understand. The government claims that we have the best screening system in the world and keeps saying that we are the best. On the other hand, we find that variants from all countries have entered Canada. There must be a reason why we have not been able to control that.

If we are as good as the government says we are, can you at least tell me what you do with people who are infected, after they test positive when they arrive?

[Iain Stewart]

If the people who test positive are highly symptomatic, we bring them to medical help. They have to go into health care if they're very ill. If they're asymptomatic, they go into the designated quarantine facilities that we run, which are intended to hold people who may well be infectious.

To answer your question, they're held. They either end up being in medical care or they end up being in a quarantine facility, to ensure that they don't infect others.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good.

Now let's talk about passenger screening. We heard testimony that there was a problem with that. Some passengers were not listening to the instructions and deciding to leave. Are the measures rigorous enough?

Normally, Canada Border Services Agency officers do not have the authority to detain people. However, you have that authority under the Quarantine Act. Are there controls at the airports to intercept people and force them to stay if they are infected? Are there people who have left the airport without concern for the problems their behaviour would cause?

[Iain Stewart]

Madam Chair, to the member's question, when we were presented with cases of non-compliance, at the get-go we took a decision that we would fine them. Under the Quarantine Act, we have the ability to fine them. The Public Health Agency is a public health agency; we don't have a course of force. We're public health professionals, and so we use fines.

As of this moment, or as of yesterday, we have issued 964 fines for people who have not complied with one aspect or another of the regime we're discussing at this moment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Paul-Hus. You have eight seconds left. I think we will move on to Mr. Sorbara for six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning to everyone, to my colleagues and all of the witnesses.

A lot has been discussed today, and I thank everyone for those questions. I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

First, to the Auditor General, in all sincerity, thank you to you and your team for your work. I did a deep dive in the last couple of days into this report on pandemic preparedness, surveillance and border control measures. It is very thorough, and I expect that from an Auditor General and her team. At the same time, there are a lot of really good recommendations.

I'd like to speak to the border measures on page 28 at paragraph 8.86 in terms of the findings with regard to the CBSA and the CBSA's ability to “quickly...enforce emergency orders prohibiting the entry of foreign nationals”, which was obviously something that the government put in place.

At the same time, there was the Public Health Agency and CBSA's ability to disseminate the pertinent information to the frontline officers in terms of the exemptions or non-exemptions. Can you comment on that for essential workers? It is something that we've had to deal with here at the constituency office several times for businesses and organizations needing essential workers to come to Canada. How has that iterative process happened?

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for your nice comments about our work. I am very proud of all of the work we do, and it's always nice to hear some nice feedback. Thank you.

What we saw at the border was that the Canada Border Services Agency collaborated very well with the Public Health Agency of Canada in order to develop guidance for border service officers to use. As you can imagine, with the evolution of the pandemic, the requirements and the orders about what the restrictions would be and who would be allowed entry into Canada were evolving, hence a lot of judgment needed to be used by border service officers.

What we found was that there was a need for better follow-up to see that those exemptions were being applied consistently, hence our recommendations to provide more detailed guidance, some training and better follow-up on the consistent application of restrictions. Any time judgment is involved, there are going to be differences and we're going to hear about individuals who believe they weren't treated fairly, but we have to recognize that it was an evolving situation. That's why we thought more oversight was likely a good solution as this continues to evolve.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Auditor General.

In this world we live in, there are some commentators.... I remember reading a book many years ago called the The Black Swan. An event happens and it's a black swan; you go to a lagoon and you usually just see white swans, but the book's title is The Black Swan. When that event happens, we look back and think that we should have been able to predict that event. Specifically, that book referenced the events of 9/11 and how that event should have been predictable and that we should have been prepared, but no one actually predicted that the event would happen.

Here, we have an event, a once in a hundred years event, a global pandemic that no one was speaking to or referencing or that a lot of countries were even prepared for. In terms of the folks over at the Public Health Agency of Canada, from where we were pre-pandemic to where we are now in terms of resources, IT structure and the ability to communicate with our provincial partners, can you please comment? I know that it's a big holistic question, but I do want to understand where we are now.

[Iain Stewart]

Well, I think we're in a significantly different place, whether it's the scale of human resources or financial resources. Think about what's been done to secure personal protective equipment and stockpiling, and what's been done with respect to securing vaccines. This will be a multi-year pandemic, so we now have an inventory of vaccines and we have people who can handle and administer them.

Think about the border. The border is in effect a perimeter of knowledge now with regard to what's going across, and we can identify what issues it raises. So a lot of infrastructure and skills and talent have been brought to bear, to answer your question, honourable member. I think we have actually made substantial improvements at many levels, to be honest.

As the pandemic evolves, the question will be how our organization needs to continue to evolve to respond to it. We are kind of in the middle of responding to the needs of the day, and they will continue to change, and so we must continue to change too.

I hope that answers your question, sir.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

It does in terms of direction, because the way I look at things, it's not just about adding human capital to an issue; it's about adding the right resources to an issue. You can hire on 10,000 people but the outcome may not change unless the organizational structure, the goals, and the methodology in place are pertinent to the issue at hand, and the problem and right strategy are identified. That's my humble opinion.

We need government to be efficient and effective and to protect Canadians. Unfortunately, more than 23,000 Canadians have passed away from this pandemic. We know that we all need to do better and that we all need to be better prepared in that light—and that goes to all levels of government, of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

That's totally correct, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

You're welcome, thank you.

We will now move to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question will be simple, Mr. Stewart. I want to understand the source of the problem that is plaguing your organization right now, but was also plaguing it at the beginning of the pandemic, if not in previous years.

Has the reduction in financial support from various governments in recent years undermined your organization's ability to respond and be fully prepared for a pandemic?

[Iain Stewart]

It's very interesting to think about what your question implies, which is that in a pandemic it's evident how much capacity and scale and competencies are required. In a way, the previous question was getting at that.

What's harder is that during the periods prior to that, imperatives like balancing the books and being responsible and prudent and so on come to bear. So a very interesting challenge for the Public Health Agency going forward is how we evolve to recognize that there's an accordion kind of function, such that there will be moments of great stress and need, and then we'll have to sustain things over the longer term. I think your question touches on that.

Prior to a pandemic, the scale of the operations required needs to be planned, and I think that goes to the Auditor General's point about the planning and planning exercises. This scaling up of capacity that's required needs to be better planned and better understood. As we go forward, we as a community need to remember the level of what will be required for the next pandemic.

Thank you for your question, sir.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

What I take away, Mr. Stewart, is that you were short on money to prepare for the pandemic. Is that correct?

[Iain Stewart]

Those are questions that are always difficult to answer. I think what we can say with absolute hindsight is—