Evidence of meeting #27 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1 p.m.
The Clerk
Basically the committee needs consent to adjourn, so they can continue sitting for as long as the members wish.
In the virtual environment, we have certain limitations. Someone at the upper level will make those decisions, and that's what I'm looking into at the moment.
1 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Sorry, Chair; I had not completed my comments.
Do we need unanimous consent from the committee to proceed, then?
1 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Okay.
Let me take it back, because I've been thinking about what's been going on at this committee for the last few minutes, and I'm going to use one word: disappointed.
This committee, public accounts, is a non-partisan committee. In my humble and personal view, we have many officers of Parliament, and I'm going to use that term “officers of Parliament” to describe the Auditor General and the work that the Auditor General does for this committee. I look at the Auditor General with a large and high level of respect for the work that this officer does, and for the employees who support the Auditor General.
I think about reports that are distributed to us by the Auditor General—and I read them very diligently and very judiciously—in terms of the work that is done, and then the follow-up work that is asked of the various departments, in this case the Canada Revenue Agency and the Department of Finance.
Today I look at Mr. Berthold's view, the honourable member's motion, with a great deal of skepticism that he is on a fishing expedition. At the same time, I view it almost as an attack on the officers of Parliament. I choose those words very, very carefully, but I have to say—
1 p.m.
Conservative
1 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
I never attacked any officer of Parliament and I don't want anyone to think that.
1 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
I will continue and then pass my time on to the honourable member from Scarborough.
I look at this request as very, very circumspect. I respect Mr. Berthold as a colleague and a friend on many levels. In terms of the path we are on in this committee, this is a non-partisan committee. There are other ways of asking. We can put forward a request for the Auditor General to appear to ensure her office was given the resources to undertake studies. I'm sure my colleagues will want to follow up on that.
I'm just very disappointed. I go back to Mr. Christopherson's wise words a few months ago about how this committee should operate. I think the idea that we should just request from cabinet all the time all documents that cabinet has discussed—just because we feel we need to and want to, for whatever purposes—is a path that makes me become very queasy. I question why we're going that way.
This is not in a political manner. There's no political-speak in what I'm saying; it's just honestly how we as parliamentarians conduct ourselves on this public accounts committee.
Mr. Berthold, I respect your desire to put forward this motion. I don't agree with it and I will say that respectfully, but also I have a large degree of respect for the AG and the work they have done. If the Auditor General wanted to put in their reports that they felt they were being constrained with regard to the documents they received or by anything to that extent, then I'm sure that would have appeared in the report.
There is a follow-up report that will come to the members of Parliament in terms of the economic evaluation of the program. It is a $100-billion program. I agree that it is a very large program. It is a very important program for employers and employees throughout this country, and I am fully cognizant of that. I am very disappointed that other members on this committee were not afforded the time today to ask a question of our witnesses—our guests—be it Mr. Sabia or the commissioner from the CRA. That's what they were here for: to answer those questions.
I think there were other avenues to pursue in terms of asking the Auditor General about the resources that her office was able to receive in conducting this study.
I will hand my time over to Ms. Yip, who I believe is next.
Thank you, Chair.
To my honourable colleague, Mr. Berthold, my words were not in any way an attack on you, but these are my feelings on the motion that was presented.
Thank you.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I feel that dropping a motion and expecting a vote so quickly really needs to be revisited. I would like to see the motion and I would like to review it, and you know, this really should be going to the finance committee for debate. I worry about the potential partisanship. That's not really the mandate of this committee.
I will read for you this quote from David Christopherson. He really felt strongly about our role on the public accounts committee. He said:
The job here is difficult. It's one that's different from any other committee, and we have to be non-partisan. When we're partisan instead of non-partisan, Canadians aren't getting the oversight that we are mandated to provide.
I cannot support this motion at this point.
Thank you.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
With your approval, I'd like to ask my honourable colleague whether he is prepared to accept amendments that would allow us to investigate whether there really is a material problem. Does the Auditor General have the impression that it prevented her from sharing relevant information with members of this committee and from doing her work to evaluate how effectively the programs have been implemented, since that is her role? If he is so disposed, then we can certainly, with the time remaining to us, find a way of bridging the gap and continuing to do our work in the collaborative manner that has been the hallmark of your stewardship for these past six months.
I know that it's rather unusual, Madam Chair, but I'd like to know whether Mr. Berthold is prepared to do that. If so, then there's certainly a way to reach agreement and unanimity around this table.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Fergus.
Do you have an amendment for consideration that you would like to propose to this motion, and can we make a determination of whether or not it is considered a friendly amendment?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Yes, I do in fact have one to put forward, Madam Chair. The problem with virtual is that it's hard to get a sense of your colleagues' body language when we're not all together around the same table. Here is the amendment.
That the motion be amended by adding, before the words “That the committee request that the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency provide the committee with all studies, data and analysis used for the implementation of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy”, the following: “That the committee ask the Auditor General to again testify on her report on the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, before the 6th of May 2021, and to detail elements of the documents her office reviewed”.
Would you like me to give a copy of the amendment to the clerk, Madam Chair?
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
It's just relevant and timely. In relation to Mr. Fergus's amendment that he just moved, he mentioned “The committee request that the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency provide the committee with all studies, data and analysis used for the implementation of the Canada emergency wage subsidy”.
He was just referencing the text of Mr. Berthold's earlier motion, correct?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Yes, of course. I was just about to send a copy of the amendment.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Kody Blois Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I was just making sure that we go to have this meeting with the Auditor General first to talk about her access to this information, and then you were referencing Mr. Berthold. I think I'm clear. Thank you.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you.
Madam Clerk, I guess we will now move into a discussion about the amendment to the motion. I know there were hands up when we were speaking on the main motion.
Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, would you like to speak to the amendment?
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, it's not linked to the amendment.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you.
I realize, colleagues, that you've heard the amendment. You may not have it in front of you and may not have it in both official languages. I believe the clerk is working to get that to you.
Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.