Public Accounts Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have a question, Madam Chair.

Will this affect our schedule over the coming weeks?

Our schedule is rather full, and I'd like to know whether we could ask the clerk to tell us at the next meeting…

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'm number three on the S. O. 31s—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Okay.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I have to go at two o'clock. That's what we agreed to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes, it will definitely have an impact. next Tuesday we will pick up where we left off, and depending on how far we get, it will have an impact.

Are we agreed to suspend, colleagues?

I see that we are.

The meeting is suspended. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome, colleagues. I would like to remind you that today we are resuming meeting number 27 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, which was suspended last Thursday. The committee is meeting in public today and is being televised.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021, and therefore members may be attending in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

Madam Clerk, I am assuming that everyone is attending virtually today.

[The Clerk]

That is correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I just have a few rules to go over.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely. As always, should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair, and please note that we may then need to suspend for a few minutes, as we want to ensure all members are able to participate fully.

Our witnesses from last Thursday have been invited back and are standing by to answer our questions if and when debate on the motion is concluded and questioning can be resumed.

I will go over the list of guests who are waiting to join us. That way we won't have to do it if we are able to resume questioning.

Joining us today from the Office of the Auditor General are Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; Philippe Le Goff, principal; and Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general.

From the Canada Revenue Agency, we have Marc Lemieux, assistant commissioner, collections and verification branch; Ted Gallivan, assistant commissioner, compliance programs branch; and Frank Vermaeten, assistant commissioner for the assessment, benefit and service branch. Mr. Hamilton, commissioner of revenue and chief executive officer, will be joining us a bit later.

From the Department of Finance, we have Andrew Marsland, senior assistant deputy minister, tax policy branch, and Miodrag Jovanovic, associate assistant deputy minister. The deputy minister, Michael Sabia, sends his regrets. Due to a conflict in his schedule, he is not able to attend this morning.

There's just one more thing before we get started. At last Thursday's meeting, Mr. Blois asked the clerk if she could prepare a document outlining the principal issues of cabinet confidentiality and the powers of the committee to call for papers. She informed me that this issue has been raised before in the public accounts committee. On February 28, the committee received a briefing from the law clerk and the counsel to the Clerk of the Privy Council on this matter. If it is the wish of the committee, we could arrange to have a briefing on these issues with these individuals.

Are there any comments or questions about that?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Chair, I believe that we received a notice of motion from our colleague Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, which in fact asks that we proceed in this manner.

Could we perhaps discuss it then?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes. Thank you very much. I will move on.

When the committee suspended the meeting on Thursday last week, we were debating the amendment of Mr. Fergus. Would you like me to read it into the record again to refresh everyone's memory on what is being debated?

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I don't think that's necessary. We might have a further amendment coming.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

All right.

If the rest of the committee is in agreement, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Now that I've had the opportunity to speak with my colleagues, I would ask that we move immediately to a vote on Mr. Fergus's amendment so that we can then return to the main motion.

After that, I think Mr. Longfield will be putting forward an amendment that we can debate. It would save a lot of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold.

Colleagues, are you ready for me to call the vote on the amendment to the main motion?

It will be recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I will turn it back to Mr. Berthold to speak to his motion.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to ask my colleague Mr. Longfield to put forward an amendment that he had me read before today's meeting.

We could then debate this amendment if the committee agrees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to Mr. Berthold for the work on this. It's great when we can try to resolve issues and put things forward for the committee to debate.

My amendment is that the motion be amended by adding after the words “That the committee request that the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency provide the committee will all studies, data and analysis used for the implementation of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy” the following:

that these documents be provided to the committee with redactions for Cabinet confidence and personal information, and that these documents be provided to the committee no later than May 27, 2021.

I've circulated it in both languages. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Longfield.

Colleagues, you have the amendment in front of you, or it was sent to you. I will now open up debate on the amendment.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Chair, may I speak?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes, go ahead.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Clerk, I think the amendment should begin by noting the wish to replace what follows the words “That the committee” with Mr. Longfield's wording. We could then treat the proposal as an amendment.

Otherwise, it would look more like a new motion.

[The Clerk]

Would the amendment come after or before your motion Mr. Berthold?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Longfield's motion could consist simply of removing all the words in the initial motion after the word “That” and replacing them with the wording suggested by Mr. Longfield.

I'd like to hear my colleagues' opinion about the amendment, but I'd first like to briefly return to a number comments I heard last week.

I just want to say that when we have discussions on subjects like these, it's neither partisan nor non-partisan. I was unfortunately criticized for having put this motion forward in a partisan manner, when it's intent was really to further clarify things for committee members from all parties. I think that was the laudable goal.

Once again, unanimity on the committee is not essential for every one of our decisions. The committee takes pride in producing unanimous reports. I'd like to reiterate this because we can't always agree on everything that is said here.

It's therefore important to point out that my comments were intended simply to provide further clarification for the committee. I believe that the motion before us, and the amendments put forward by Mr. Longfield, will enable everyone to have the answers we need to move forward and come up with what I trust will be a unanimous report from the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I have a question for Mr. Longfield. Why should we have to wait until May 27 to obtain the documents?

In my initial motion, I had asked that we be able to obtain the documents very soon, so that we could move forward more quickly. I'd like Mr. Longfield to explain why he chose May 27 as the date for receiving all the documents.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold.

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.