Public Accounts Committee on April 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 28 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

The committee is meeting in public today and is being televised.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to study “Report 3—Access to Safe Drinking Water in First Nations Communities—Indigenous Services Canada” of the 2021 reports 1 to 5 of the Auditor General of Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Therefore, members may be attending in person in the room or remotely by using the Zoom application. However, I understand that everyone is attending virtually today, so for those of you who are, I will just go through a few reminders.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either “Floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of a headset with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair. Please note that we may then need to suspend a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

If the members agree, I'd like to take about five minutes at the end of the meeting for a bit of committee business.

Now I'd like to welcome our witnesses. Joining us today from the Office of the Auditor General are Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, and Glenn Wheeler, principal. From the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Christiane Fox, deputy minister; Joanne Wilkinson, senior assistant deputy minister, regional operations sector; Chad Westmacott, director general, community infrastructure branch; and Jennifer Esdaile, director, strategic water management.

I will now turn it over to Ms. Hogan for five minutes.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General]

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our recent report on access to safe drinking water in first nations communities. Joining me today is Glenn Wheeler, the principal who was responsible for the audit.

Reliable access to safe drinking water is vital to the health and well-being of all, including the people living in the more than 600 first nations communities across Canada. Many of these communities have lived for a long time without the assurance that their drinking water is safe.

In 2015, the federal government committed to eliminating all long-term drinking water advisories on public water systems on first nations reserves by March 31, 2021.

Overall, Indigenous Services Canada has not provided the support needed to ensure that first nations communities have ongoing access to safe drinking water. In fact, in December 2020 the minister acknowledged that the department was not on track to meet its March 31 target.

We found that since the federal government's 2015 commitment, there have been a total of 160 long-term drinking water advisories on public water systems in first nations communities. As of November 1, 2020, 60 remained in effect in 41 first nations communities, with almost half of the advisories having been in place for more than a decade.

In addition, we found that some long-term advisories were lifted only as a result of interim measures that did not fully address the underlying deficiencies. For some of these water systems, long-term solutions were not expected to be completed until 2025.

The audit team also found that Indigenous Services Canada's efforts have been constrained by an outdated policy and formula for funding the operation and maintenance of public water systems. The department had not amended the funding formula since it was first developed 30 years ago. Until the formula is updated, it is unclear whether recent funding increases will be sufficient to meet first nations' water infrastructure needs.

The department has been working with first nations to provide first nations communities with drinking water protections comparable to other communities in Canada. However, we found that there is still no regulatory regime in place 15 years after we first recommended it.

The federal government emphasizes the importance of reconciliation and the renewal of a nation-to-nation relationship between Canada and indigenous communities that is based on the recognition of indigenous rights, respect, co-operation and partnership. Indigenous Services Canada must work in partnership with first nations to develop and implement lasting solutions for safe drinking water in first nations communities. This is a key component of reconciliation.

Over the last few decades, many of my predecessors have raised concerns about programs that failed to effectively serve Canada's indigenous peoples. I am very concerned, and honestly disheartened, to find myself reporting a long-standing issue that is still not resolved. Access to safe drinking water is a basic human necessity. I don't believe anyone would say that this situation is in any way acceptable in Canada in 2021.

We made five recommendations to Indigenous Services Canada, and the department has agreed with all of them.

Madam Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We will now go to Ms. Fox for five minutes.

[Christiane Fox, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

I would like to acknowledge before I begin that I am on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Thank you to the committee for having me.

The Government of Canada has made it a top priority to ensure that all first nation communities have access to safe, clean and reliable drinking water.

The department has welcomed the Office of the Auditor General of Canada's report on the issue of safe drinking water in first nations communities, and shares her commitment on the issue. The report includes five recommendations, each of which aligns with actions the government is taking to ensure every first nation community has access to clean water.

The department remains committed to implementing the action plan, working in partnership with first nations and following the transformation agenda.

Let me begin by noting that the impact of COVID-19 in the past year cannot be understated. The pandemic has delayed the completion of infrastructure projects across the country, including projects aimed at addressing long-term drinking water advisories. The health and well-being of first nation community members remains our top priority.

First nations are leading the response to protect their communities from COVID-19. In some cases, this has had an effect on getting equipment and resources into communities, especially in remote and northern areas.

The government recently announced significant investments to continue work aimed at lifting long-term drinking water advisories, to continue supporting water and wastewater infrastructure investments, and to support the operation and maintenance of water and wastewater systems.

With the combined investments made as part of budget 2019 and the $1.5 billion in additional funding announced by the department in December 2020, by 2025, Indigenous Services Canada will have increased the annual funding it provides first nations to support the operation and maintenance of water and wastewater systems by almost four times.

The increase in operations and maintenance funding has already started flowing directly to first nations, with 2020-21 operations and maintenance top-ups having been provided.

In addition, budget 2021 committed $4.3 billion over four years to support infrastructure projects in first nations, Inuit and Métis Nation communities, and $1.7 billion over five years to cover the cost of operations and maintenance of community infrastructure in first nations communities on reserve.

Working with indigenous partners, these investments will make significant strides in closing gaps between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples, support healthy, safe and prosperous indigenous communities, and advance meaningful reconciliation with first nations, Inuit, and the Métis nation. These investments will support continued action on infrastructure and clean water.

The long-term drinking water advisory commitment was made to address drinking water issues and concerns on reserve. Partnering with first nations, the government has collectively taken a number of important actions that have improved drinking water on reserve.

In November 2015, there were 105 long-term drinking water advisories on public systems on reserves across the country. Since then, 58 long-term drinking water advisories have been added. First nations, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, have lifted 106 long-term drinking water advisories. In addition to that, 179 short-term drinking water advisories at risk of becoming long-term have been lifted, ensuring clean drinking water to first nations.

Initiatives are well under way to address the 52 remaining long-term drinking water advisories in 33 communities.

Long-term solutions are under way in all cases where interim measures were put in place to provide communities with clean drinking water as soon as possible.

The department also continues to support a first nations-led engagement process for the development of that long-term strategy. We will continue to work to ensure that funding is available to commit towards these important water projects and address the long-term needs of communities.

In alignment with the Office of the Auditor General's recommendations, the government will continue to work with first nations to conduct performance inspections of water systems annually and asset condition assessments every three years to identify deficiencies.

Still, we realize more work needs to be done. The government values input from the OAG and other observers, and we will continue to work in concert with first nations partners to improve water infrastructure on reserve and support access to safe, clean and reliable drinking water.

In closing, we remain committed to clean drinking water because it is about building a sustainable foundation that ensures first nations communities have that access to drinking water now and into the future.

Meegwetch. Nakurmiik. Marsi. Thank you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fox.

We will now go to our rounds of questioning, starting with our six-minute round.

Mr. Webber, you have six minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Go ahead, Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I want to bring an important point to the witnesses' attention. I think my fellow members will agree with me.

We received the department's action plan only an hour before today's meeting. Frankly, that isn't enough time to properly review the plan, so we may very well ask questions that are already covered in the action plan.

I also want to make the Indigenous Services Canada officials aware that we need more time to consider and examine their answers. I would ask them to bear with us if we ask questions about the action plan, because we likely will.

Madam Clerk, could the committee ask the witnesses and departmental representatives who will be appearing next to adhere to a more reasonable time frame, so we have time to read the action plan before the meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold. I know that our clerk works diligently to get the information that we need to you in a very timely way. As the chair, I take your point as well.

Go ahead, Mr. Webber, for six minutes.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Absolutely, I can concur with Mr. Berthold on that. To get the information sooner would certainly help.

I thank Ms. Hogan and Ms. Fox for their presentations today.

Ms. Fox, you talked a bit about the budget, and that was something that I jumped into. I sifted through the budget and found that on page 265 it says there's “$1.7 billion over five years to cover operations and maintenance costs of on reserve community infrastructure in First Nations communities.” You mentioned the number of billions of dollars going into community infrastructure as well, but that could be a hockey arena or anything other than a water treatment facility.

Page 245 of the budget indicated “new investment of over $18 billion over the next five years, to improve the quality of life and create new opportunities for people living in Indigenous communities.” It also said, “These investments will support continued action on infrastructure”, and then mentions “and clean water”, which is nice to see in the document. On page 248, it says there's $125 million over four years, beginning next year, “to continue to support First Nations communities' reliable access to clean water and help ensure the safe delivery of health and social services on reserve.”

None of these three points that I bring up really specify what type of money is going directly into water and water treatment. Have you any idea of what money you're getting in this new budget that is targeted specifically for water and water treatment in indigenous first nation communities?

Thanks.

[Christiane Fox]

First, I would say the following. Since 2016 we have invested $4.27 billion. That is directly to repair water and waste-water infrastructure and support the effective management and maintenance of water systems on reserve. I would also note that in the fall economic statement, there was a commitment that is very specific to water operation and maintenance. In December of 2020, $1.5 billion was announced. That includes $616.3 million over six years, with about $115 million ongoing. That is directly for the operation and maintenance of water infrastructure in communities. That money is very dedicated to that activity. We have a series of budget announcements over the last five years that have very specific and direct funding for water infrastructure.

With respect to budget 2021, you are correct that there is $4.3 billion dedicated to infrastructure, but it's infrastructure at large, and it is distinctions-based. We will have to work with first nations leadership, the Inuit and the Métis nation to have a distinctions-based strategy in order to dedicate funding to infrastructure priorities. In that there will be water infrastructure.

I would say that in terms of the very specific funding that I think will have a huge impact on our ability, it's this O and M money that we received in both budget 2019 and the fall economic statement that really allows us to pursue the important work of the critical infrastructure as well as the operation and maintenance training needs of communities to be able to respond. It's about getting the systems in, but it's also about getting the expertise to manage the system and to monitor the system. That can really be about job creation. It's about the transformation agenda whereby first nations leadership and the community can take ownership of that water system. We want to work very closely with them on that.

With regard to the $18 billion dedicated to indigenous priorities, that touches the next year of COVID supports that will continue. It touches health transformation, anti-racism, infrastructure, governance; it's kind of a long list. We'll be working with our partners to work through budget 2021 and marry it with previous investments with, as I said, a starting point of over $4.2 billion for water infrastructure.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Great.

You mentioned that this is a huge amount of money, obviously. It's $4.2 billion. Do you think that is a sufficient amount of money to alleviate the problems in these first nations communities and reserves?

[Christiane Fox]

I think we have seen over the last few years a continued commitment towards addressing these water challenges. This has not been an exercise of just lifting drinking water advisories. Obviously, that is a very focused part of our department and our mandate, but really it's about that long-term strategy.

Will more investments be required into the future? I can't say that this is enough to solve everything forever, but I think what we're seeing is dedicated funding for infrastructure and, in addition to that, for operation and maintenance. I can't stress how important that is, especially as we look at new technologies in water. How do we sustain the shifts and the advancements to have better operating systems in communities?

We will keep working through it with communities, with first nations leaders, to see what solutions work for their communities and how we can empower them and support them in making the right decisions.

I would just note that a big part of the focus in this—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you.

[Christiane Fox]

Sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I'm sorry. We are over time.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Perhaps you could make your observation in another answer.

We will now go to Mr. Longfield for six minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Perhaps Ms. Fox could complete her thought there. It's along the lines of some of the questioning I had as well.

[Christiane Fox]

Okay. Thank you.

We have a program here at Indigenous Services Canada called the circuit rider training program—namely, how do we actually develop the skill set within communities to develop a workforce that can do that very important operation and maintenance? Through that program, we try to develop that skill and capability and provide the tools required for communities to manage their projects. We work with first nations leaders and communities directly as well as with other organizations. How can we empower youth through skills, learning and training so that they can be part of the solution? How can we empower women so that they can be part of the solution?

I would just note that this program, with the O and M funding we got, can really expand and build. It has that reliability over the long term.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned the women. Quite often in indigenous communities the women are the water watchers, the ones who take care of the water. It's important to have them involved, as well as the youth.

I'm thinking of a round table I had with some grand chiefs in my last term at the beginning of all this. I remember Chief Madahbee saying to us, “We need operating and maintenance.” There was another comment from another grand chief who said, “We're getting these systems given to us from Ottawa, but they're not the right systems. You're not listening to our elders. You're putting septic fields where we know there are flood plains. If you would work with us, we could tell you better solutions.” One treatment plant actually added contaminants to the water because it wasn't being maintained properly. That was one of the examples, so there's the whole training piece.

Could you comment, Ms. Fox, on the importance of nation-to-nation discussions, and how they're actually very practical in terms getting to the right solutions at the right time to serve the communities in the way they want to be served?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for that question.

I think it is absolutely a foundational part of our work. It can't be about the federal government coming in and giving solutions or prescribing one particular system over another. It has to be about partnership and about indigenous leadership making decisions that are best for their communities.

We've really tried to take a community-by-community approach. Through our action plan, we really try to have the communities tell us what their needs are and what some of their priorities are. That can't be unique to water. As you know, when we have conversations with leadership, there are other priorities they address. How do we empower them?

I think the decision-making is key. It's not for us to lift a long-term drinking water advisory. It's not for us to prescribe a contractor. It's not for us to decide on the systems. We really want to support, and that support has to come with funding. It has to come with a commitment to work in partnership, but ultimately we want indigenous leaders and first nations leaders within communities to make the decisions that are best for their communities, and we are there to support them in doing that.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That is why our budgets are increasing as we find different needs, things that we maybe didn't consider, that they're bringing forward to us.

I wanted to touch on the band council resolutions. Band councils will come to us with resolutions, particularly during COVID, and say, “We really don't want you in our community. We'll tell you when you can come in.” That has limited some of our construction projects and changed some of our schedules.

Could you talk about the process of band councils giving us resolutions and how we're respecting those resolutions?

[Christiane Fox]

Absolutely. That's an excellent question.

COVID-19 obviously has been our number one priority in this department over the last year. We have been working in lockstep with indigenous leaders to partner with them and to support them in the very important decisions they make to protect their communities.

Band council resolutions are a way that they demonstrate to us that they've made a decision about the safety and security of their communities. That has sometimes meant a shutdown of the community. They've requested some supports at times for perimeter security to manage the flow in and out of their communities, and at times it was the difference between the protection of a community against an outbreak in order to have a healthy community.

We have been very responsive to band council resolutions to respect the decisions that indigenous leaders have made. That has meant that some of the construction season of last year was impacted. It was impacted not just because of those decisions, which were very important as we face a third wave in this country and have to be extremely vigilant in how we manage it, but also in terms of just getting equipment in and out.

As a department, we have to think about how we manage both the pandemic response and the support we're giving to communities in the summer season coming up, while trying to advance some of these very important water projects and other infrastructure projects.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Okay, thanks.

I have quick one in terms of retaining the operators that we're training.

Up in the NAN at Sioux Lookout, they have been losing operators to the local paper mill, which was paying more money. What are we doing to try to retain operators?