Public Accounts Committee on April 29th, 2021

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

To the Auditor General again, I've referenced multiple first nations in our region—Tataskweyak Cree Nation, Shamattawa First Nation, Red Sucker Lake First Nation, York Factory First Nation and Garden Hill First Nation—and those are in our riding alone. This repeats itself across the country, and it shouldn't have to be this way. It's something we regularly hear from this government, but what the AG's report—your report—made clear is that this government hasn't done the work, not just last summer but over a number of years.

Now the government won't give us a deadline for when their commitment to end clean drinking water advisories for first nations by March of 21 will be complete. The briefing note sent quite late this morning mentioned that you believe that long-term solutions for some communities won't be in place until at least 2025. This is an unacceptable failure by Indigenous Services Canada and this Liberal government, but they haven't been willing to give an actual timeline.

In your opinion, did this year's budget deal with the lack of funding to solve the problem, or were there just more empty words from this government?

[Karen Hogan]

I was very happy to see a renewed commitment for additional operating and maintenance funding in the fall economic statement and in the budget, but as I mentioned in my opening remarks, it is difficult to know if that funding will be sufficient, in our view, until the funding formula updates have been addressed and taken care of. It shouldn't just factor in what the funding formula believes now is the right funding for each first nation; it should consider advances in technology and other factors. It should also ensure that operator salaries can be addressed in that bucket.

I think that until that funding formula is addressed, it is difficult to know whether it will be sufficient.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Just quickly, this is a question for the ISC.

I've referenced numerous first nations in our riding that still don't have access to clean drinking water. Is it acceptable that in 2021 in Canada, a country as rich as ours, first nations continue to face this situation?

[Christiane Fox]

No, it is not acceptable. We believe all Canadians should have access to clean drinking water, absolutely. That's what pushes and motivates our department to work directly with chiefs and councils to address these issues.

You mentioned York Factory. We have been in touch. We have teams on standby 24-7 to take calls from indigenous leaders, whether it be on water issues, fire, mental health supports or COVID. In terms of York Factory, the water is back up and running. However, the chief and council have decided that they want to do additional testing before they turn it back on.

When issues arise, we want to be responsive and we want to work in lockstep with them to try to address those concerns.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Finally, perhaps I could make a closing remark.

I really appreciate the work of the AG team on this issue. I would like to point out, as was raised by other colleagues, the perhaps veiled attack on the lack of response from first nations leaders. First nations leaders have been fighting for their lives and the lives of the members of their community. This idea that somehow the AG report is not fully legitimate because they didn't hear from them is so wrong and it is an unacceptable attack, frankly. The chief of Red Sucker Lake First Nation had COVID himself when he was fighting for a second water truck for his community.

The struggle is very real, and this is not the time to play political games. I very much appreciate the work that's being done to address this human rights violation in Canada right now. First nations deserve clean drinking water now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton.

We will move into our next round of questioning, starting with Mr. Webber for five minutes.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had originally asked this question of you, Ms. Hogan, back in March when you tabled the reports. It's about the hiring practices on first nation communities.

Ms. Hogan indicated that it wasn't part of her audit, so I will ask you, Ms. Fox, about what role the federal government has in the hiring practices of first nation communities. I specifically asked Ms. Hogan, so I'll ask you, Ms. Fox, whether or not any first nation reserves have restricted water supply jobs to indigenous and band workers only. If so, does this affect their ability to find qualified people to fill these positions? Has this created any continuity issues in the plants' operations?

[Christiane Fox]

I think what I would say is that the department is involved in terms of providing funding to first nations leadership, but it is the responsibility of the first nations to manage the contract. Of course, through the terms and conditions of our funding, there are certain requirements. We really try to offer that if they need any types of supports in terms of the contract, such as setting up the contract or in terms of contractors, we're happy to work with them. Ultimately, however, the decision is theirs.

With respect to your question about the decisions on the water maintenance operators, who they hire to do these supports is absolutely up to the chief and council. As I think I mentioned, the O and M funding that is available now really allows them to give competitive salaries, to recruit youth and women in their communities, and to really work with them, so the question is best placed with them. Have they held back on hiring? I haven't been privy to that type of information. I think now we can say that with investment, especially that $1.5 billion of operation funding in the fall economic statement, they're really well positioned to hire the talent they need to monitor their systems. Then through the department's circuit rider training program, they can be supported through a group of learners and facilitators to allow them to really have the impact in their communities and on their systems.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you for that. That leads to my question here also.

First of all, there was a survey conducted by a consortium of universities led by Concordia. They found that two-thirds of water operators on first nations reserves were earning lower than the median wage of operators elsewhere, outside reserves. Sometimes they are working for close to minium wage, often while on call 24-7. Many of the operations operate this way in first nation communities, with the safety of their drinking water reliant on just one or a few underpaid and overworked operators.

I know, as you indicated, that it's not your role to determine salaries and such, but certainly with this new funding in place, they can look at these wages, as you've indicated. I just think that it's incredibly important that we look at retention. It was brought up by Mr. Longfield and Mr. Sorbara as well. Retention seems to be a recurring issue.

Again, it is up to the first nation communities, then, to determine the wages and salaries. Would bonuses be much cheaper than the costs associated with water advisories? It just makes sense to me to pay them fair wages. Do you have any comments on that, Ms. Fox?

[Christiane Fox]

I think what I would say is that the investments that we've made in budget 2019 and the fall economic statement about the O and M allow them to increase their wages. Now we're at 100% of that O and M funding formula. I think it does, with regard to your point, really give the chief and council the opportunity to pay fair wages. If a community were to decide to kind of supplement for performance, that would be entirely up to the community. We would, obviously, be supportive of that.

I also think it's important to note that the skills and training, and the continued training and learning as new technologies come into play, are really important. If O and M funding allows that, as new water technologies emerge and as people can survey the water systems remotely versus doing the testing more manually.... All of those things are incorporated in this additional funding of O and M to allow for that. It is up to the band and council to make those final decisions. However, they need to have the funding to be able to do that, and that's what we're trying to provide.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Webber.

We will now go to Mr. Fergus for five minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Madam Chair, since I was absent for the bulk of this morning's meeting, I will turn the floor over to my colleague Mr. Blois.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fergus.

Go ahead, Mr. Blois.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Webber was hitting on this in terms of capacity, so my question is to the Auditor General.

You've looked at this issue. Clean water on reserves has been a legacy issue you talked about in reports in 2005 and 2011. Is this just a money issue, or is there more at play here in terms of how we get it?

We talk about the budget allocations. I'm proud of the fact that our government is stepping up to put more money on the table. However, is money alone going to solve some of these challenges?

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't really address this in the audit.

In my opinion, money alone is not enough. Money is absolutely needed when you make commitments or create laws and regulations. You need the funding to support the infrastructure, the investment and the time that need to go with all of these things. It isn't just about money, but money is definitely an important aspect.

One of the last things I would highlight is probably the training that would then be needed to maintain those trained operators. However, what we've seen across so many of our audits on indigenous issues is that this is not unique to water treatment plants. It's also the ability to attract and retain resources when it comes to nursing staff, mental health practitioners. There are so many issues. It's very interconnected in the north and on reserves with housing as well, so it isn't just money. There's a much bigger, broader, more comprehensive issue.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

“Capacity” is the word. “Capacity” seems to be the word.

With that, Ms. Fox, just as a quick follow-up to Mr. Webber, he mentioned—and I'll take his report at face value, because I don't have it in front of me—that two-thirds of individuals who are working in these spaces might be earning near or around minimum wage. I have to assume that when Indigenous Services Canada puts its block of funding to indigenous communities, it would not just be on a basis of minium wage.

What type of accountability or what type of oversight, if any, do we have to ensure that the block of funding is supporting certain outcomes, such as improvement over minimum wage, or to ensure that the money is in place to retrain these types of workers that we need?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you so much. It's a great question.

I think what is really important to note is again—and I've come to this point a lot—that it's about that respectful relationship and it's about indigenous leaders making those decisions. Of course, we want to work with them because they will have skills and training needs in their community for broader infrastructure, for water infrastructure, and it's about working closely with them to empower them to make those decisions and provide them with the resources to enable that decision-making, because if you don't have—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I just want to hammer down on this. You mentioned your allocation of funding to indigenous communities. Surely as part of that funding model, the actual amount that you would allocate would take into consideration the number of employees who might be needed per community and would surely not be based at minimum wage. Is that a fair statement?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, but at the end of the day we cannot dictate what the salary will be for that worker in that community.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay. That was my question.

Ms. Fox, you talked earlier about wanting to get to the point of enabling indigenous communities to take even more leadership in terms of departments such as water. You mentioned that Indigenous Services will provide funding, and we talked about how we need to increase that funding. There is capacity building. What, in your mind, does enabling indigenous communities to have that final leadership look like?

It seems as though we've already devolved a lot of that power, outside of actual funding, to indigenous communities. Does that look like raising their own source of revenue with their community? What does that actually look like in your mind?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, I think that's an excellent question.

It would be things like the environmental public health officers, for instance, who do the testing. At this point right now, we're in a process of transferring that responsibility and that funding from the employees I have here in Indigenous Services Canada to funding people in communities to take on those roles and provide that kind of skills and training, so it's not limited to the operators. It's about health transformation and working with communities so that the Indigenous Services Canada nurses now become nurses of the community. It's all part of our overall governmental objective to transform those services, and water is one of them.

You are right that we are making progress towards that transformation by empowering leadership to take on these responsibilities, and I think we will continue to do that throughout our mandate here.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair, I think that might be my time, although I wish I had more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes, you are right on time. Thank you so much, Ms. Fox and Mr. Blois.

We will now move into our last round of questioning of two and a half minutes, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will continue with questions for Ms. Fox.

Ms. Fox, earlier, I was trying to understand whether the government's goal of fixing all the problems before March 31, 2021, was realistic before the pandemic.

From what I understand, the pandemic turned all plans upside down. Is that correct?