Public Accounts Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is he here? There he is.

[Graham Flack]

He is.

It does not to my knowledge, no.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you mean that it's not applied or that it's outside the purview of...?

[Graham Flack]

It's not ESDC that manages the program.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have it up here on my screen, and I'm not saying this as a gotcha, but what I'm trying to get at here is that we have these stated equity programs, these policies, by the government that are supposed to provide equity in our procurement. We are probably the biggest procurement entity in the country by far, and yet it seems as though the processes this government has in place, while well-meaning, offer us no meaningful outcomes to actually apply what's already here.

So for reference, if I'm to understand it correctly, for contracts worth over a million dollars, there are certain parameters that are supposed to be triggered that would help make our workforce more representative and make the business that the government does for the general public reflect that general public, including women. Actually, in fact, at this committee, we clearly defined it. If I may say so, Madam Chair, you'll recall that we worked in a very bipartisan manner to be very clear in our definition of what the “plus” meant: aboriginal people, persons with disabilities, members of visible minorities, and even subgroups, I believe, of the Black community.

If we have this program—and it's here under ESDC, under the labour programs—and we have procurement, where is the federal contractors program applied? Is it applied at all? Is it something that we as a government should just scrap because we're not using it?

[Graham Flack]

I believe it's the responsibility of the deputy minister of labour. I'll just have to consult with her and get back to you with that information.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So in our IT procurement, it would not be considered?

[Graham Flack]

Benoît, on the BDM procurement, has this played in?

[Benoît Long, Chief Transformation Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development]

It has not to my knowledge, but I would have to take it away, just as the deputy suggested, simply because the application of the program may or may not apply to procurement, so I don't know. I'm sorry.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In a basic way, would our IT contractors, the third party folks, not fall under the contractors who do business with the Government of Canada?

Basically the federal contractors program is defined by contractors who want to do business with the Government of Canada, which seeks to achieve and maintain a workforce that is representative of the Canadian workforce and includes the members that I have just referred to. We have this policy. I've talked about it many times at this committee and others, and nobody seems to know where it's applied or how.

Would you care to comment, Mr. Flack, about instances of where it is actually applied, if at all?

[Graham Flack]

If I could, I'd like to consult with the deputy minister of labour, who, I believe, has carriage of the program, and then we can get back to you with how—at least in our department—it has been applied.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

For the record, I'm just going to state my deep disappointment that senior members of the departments that are present including, quite frankly I'm going to have to say, the Auditor General's office, are failing to pick up on a significant point that has been topical for this government for the entirety of this term in Parliament.

Is my time up? Am I done? I'll have more time to come back to this.

Ms. Block, I do appreciate this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Yes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think people get a sense that I'm on the record now with my deep disappointment. That's my “disappointed dad” moment that I have in this particular committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

We will now move to our second round of questioning, a five-minute round, starting with Ms. Harder.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I'll come back to you and pick up where we left off. In your report, you talk about procurement and the step-by-step guideline that should be in place in agile procurement. You've talked about this with other members.

When it comes to agile procurement, when it comes to this new method, are there consistent metrics in place within SSC or are those metrics changing? Are they fluid? How does that work when it comes to, quote, “agile procurement”?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm going to leave a little bit of space for Joanna Murphy perhaps to add between me and Carol. She's probably the one who knows the most about agile procurement. I could talk about it in some generality, but I think your specific question is one that I can't answer at this moment, so I'll see if Joanna has some insights to add.

[Joanna Murphy, Director, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

In terms of metrics what I would say is that each procurement is very different; hence, the need to be agile. For each complex IT project, it's a big question mark: How are we going to solve this big problem? I can't say that there would be a way of baselining and expecting a certain type of measure for an agile procurement. I think each procurement in and of itself is going to be measured differently. I think the most important thing is whether you're going to meet the outcome of meeting the needs of your users.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay. The metric is basically a needs-based assessment.

[Joanna Murphy]

Very much so. It's outcomes based and whether you meet the needs of the user.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay. Who determines what that outcome should be?

[Joanna Murphy]

That's where it is very important for the key players—whoever is the owner of the system—to very much understand what the need of the user is, and to say, okay, this is what they need for delivering benefits, and if we arrive at delivering those benefits, then we've met our need.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay.

Coming back to you, Ms. Hogan, one of the things that has been written about in national papers, and of course is a concern to many, is the fact that so many contracts have been awarded to Cisco from within the SSC. It's been called “a pattern of dependency by Ottawa on a single network provider that has all but shut out competing bids”.

That's a big deal.

When it comes to procurement practices, then, on behalf of the Canadian taxpayer I have to wonder, are there strict processes being followed? Are there consistent metrics to make sure that contracts actually are being awarded in a fair manner?

[Karen Hogan]

Unfortunately, we didn't look at any of those contracts awarded to Cisco. I feel like I really can't comment on whether they were done fairly—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm not asking about specific contracts. I'm asking about the process.