Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 20th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

You've broadened the subject to contracts issued to a contractor or supplier that isn't related to ArriveCAN, so I can't comment on that.

It's undeniable that, at the beginning of the pandemic, this agency had a lot of things to manage. But it was very small at the time. It asked for help from the Canada Border Services Agency. That said, asking for help to create and implement an app is not a reason not to have good oversight. We don't see any documentation—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

There was no documentation, no oversight. I know that you noted the fact that there was no budget or timeline, that is to say all the basic control processes.

You have no evidence, for example…

You talked about communication between Public Services and Procurement Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency on a non‑competitive process. Was there the same kind of exchange, for example, on the extent to which contracts were awarded in a non‑competitive manner? Has there been anything from the Public Health Agency?

[Karen Hogan]

There was a lot of discussion in committees, but as the chair testified today, it was more about the health aspects and necessary changes, not about project oversight, timelines and costs.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Although it was the business owner of the app, the agency wasn't concerned with the budget, timeline or processes in which taxpayers' money would be spent. So there was no concern for this type of information, which is crucial.

[Karen Hogan]

Perhaps there was concern, but it didn't leave a trail that a third party or an auditor could see.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Is it just a question of size?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, but you'll have another turn.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to turn again to the report, to the findings related to “No governance structure or budget” on page 15 of the English version.

The narrative we've heard so far, and the one we've been investigating through the Auditor General—whom we thank for her work—is the fact that, at the onset of the development of the ArriveCAN app, “no formal agreement existed between the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency on their respective roles and responsibilities.” We find that those roles and responsibilities are critically important because they delineate things like the “project objectives and goals, budgets and cost estimates, assessments of resource needs, [and even] risk management activities.” This could have been avoided had there been a good governance structure to at least give red flags on this.

This is for the president of the Public Health Agency. You mentioned that there were weekly meetings to establish work on ArriveCAN, but it failed to accommodate for any of these really important governance issues. Can you tell us, just in 15 seconds, what was discussed in those meetings?

[Heather Jeffrey]

My understanding is that the focus at the meetings was on how to operationalize the OICs at the border through the app. They would go through the different releases. They would look at readiness checklists for the releases. There was a formal intake process for any changes that would be made to the app. Documentation of the business requirements were each changed.

There was a lot of discussion around the operational rollout of the app in its different versions and adjustments. What the Auditor General has pointed to is that the overarching project governance infrastructure was not in place or documented.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I thank you for that statement.

It seems as though that was known to the department. Then a letter of intent was established between the agencies—you mentioned that—signed on July 2021, and was in effect until March 2022. The letter then clarifies the things that should have been done largely through those meetings.

I was pleased to see that, at one point, there was a check and balance.

We find that non-competitive contracts, however, were then distributed. It is a shame that at the time that this was caught as an issue, we almost see this burying of the facts by the release and tenure of a competitive contract. Your agency was directly involved in ensuring that the experience and qualification requirements of those contracts were very narrow.

How is that fair for Canadians, when so many times we see the abuse of these kinds of instances taking place? We had an opportunity to rectify that by a competitive process, but then we see the terrible issue of ensuring that your department directly engaged in—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, you are out of time. I'm going to allow for a response, though.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you.

[Heather Jeffrey]

The decision was taken to enter into a sole-source contract with KPMG because of the time pressures of needing to put in place the actual rollout in the airport processes, to liaise with airlines and airport authorities, and to ensure that the traveller journey and information that was being put out to the public about the app was accurate and timely.

The sole-source contract was pursued for reasons of speed of response. The reasons for choosing KPMG were documented. However, the Auditor General has pointed to the need for more documentation in that regard. I would say that the subsequent contracts also stemmed from the vendor's experience with and track record of excellent delivery on those services.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Scheer, welcome. Thank you for joining us today.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for Ms. Jeffrey.

You indicated that, with regard to the 177 updates to the app, proper testing for the updates wasn't done. Do you believe that it's acceptable to operate in that manner?

[Heather Jeffrey]

A best practice would be to test all of the different applications. However, my understanding is that a decision was taken to only test a sampling of them because of the time that it took to test those and the pressure to have the adjustments rolled out quickly.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Who made that decision?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I don't know who made that decision at the time.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Who has the authority to make that decision? Decisions don't just get made. They don't just appear. Who would normally have the authority to make that decision?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The app development and rollout at that stage was being managed by the Canada Border Services Agency. The Public Health Agency was collaborating with the CBSA in terms of—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Are you saying that it was somebody at the CBSA who would have made that decision, or was it someone at the Public Health Agency of Canada?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I believe that the CBSA has already addressed this in its previous testimony at this committee.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Was it somebody in your department who made the decision to not test the app?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'm going to turn to Luc Brisebois from the border services branch.

[Luc Brisebois, Acting Vice President, Health Security and Regional Operations, Public Health Agency of Canada]

I think the president's right in the context that the governance would have been the place where these issues were discussed, but from an IT perspective—