Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 20th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is there any opposition to 30 days?

(Subamendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Amendment as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I'm now going to get back to our witnesses.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have two and a half minutes.

Thank you very much to the witnesses who are still here.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes, I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Take a few moments. I understand that you have only two and a half minutes. We're not going to use your time.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I can ask you my question right away, Madam Auditor General.

Recommendation 1.46 of your report notes that you also found that certain Public Health Agency of Canada processes did not comply with those of Public Services and Procurement Canada, including codes of conduct for all contracting processes.

You mentioned that KPMG received contracts in a non‑competitive manner. We know it can happen. However, you also raised the fact that there was no documentation explaining why the agency chose KPMG.

What's more, contracts had been modified to be increasingly flexible, with fewer and fewer job descriptions, so that even more public money could be spent on the same contracts.

Can you expand on that, please?

[Karen Hogan]

You did a good job of summarizing that paragraph. I think in paragraph 50 we also list the contracts that have been changed to provide flexibility.

All of these processes are legal. However, if the government needs more flexibility in a contract, we still expect it to ensure that job descriptions are specified. It is this lack of detail that has contributed to the fact that it's difficult to know whether the value received for the funds spent is adequate.

These are basic requirements, and they are expected to be in the contracts. They shouldn't be withdrawn after a contract has been issued.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Madam Auditor General, why do you think such basic processes weren't followed?

[Karen Hogan]

As I mentioned last week, I believe the pandemic is to blame.

People felt pressure to support Canadians quickly and efficiently. There are a lot of regulations around contracting in government. It's expected that the basic rules will be followed.

It shouldn't be made complicated and more difficult, but there still needs to be accountability.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You did say that the pandemic didn't justify cutting so many corners.

Granted, there may have been a bit of urgency, but when you lift all the stones in this case, you can see that it didn't just happen during the pandemic and in the case of ArriveCAN, but that it potentially happened on other occasions, before the pandemic.

Of course, this isn't exactly within the scope of your report, but can we really assume that processes have always been followed at times other than the pandemic?

[Karen Hogan]

No, I think it's entirely possible that this happened before the pandemic. We need only read the ombudsman's report, which examined contracts larger than the one for ArriveCAN at the Canada Border Services Agency. It was clear that there was a lack of documentation, and basic processes weren't followed.

However, I expect the government to use common sense when it implements policies and to ensure good monitoring of the policies in place, rather than simply adding them.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Now Mr. Desjarlais is up.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to turn our attention now to the Auditor General's report finding under 1.42, page 11 of the English report. It states under the title “Vendors” that, “We found situations where agency employees who were involved in the ArriveCAN project were invited by vendors to dinners and other activities.”

To the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada, before you were president of the Public Health Agency and during your time on the special task force for COVID-19 for the very same project, under ensuring that people had access to COVID-19 supports, did you find any instances where this became a red flag? Was that red flag reported?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We found no evidence that agency employees or staff received an invitation from vendors.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

To the Auditor General, what instances—or in your words, “situations”—were there with agency employees who were involved in the ArriveCan project and were invited by vendors to dinners and other activities? What evidence do you have to suggest that?

[Karen Hogan]

As you know, because the files were so incomplete, we turned to emails, which are typically transitory in nature. It's in those emails that we saw invitations from three or four vendors to at least five Canada Border Services Agency employees and about a half of a dozen others for whom we couldn't tell if they were part of the Canada Border Services Agency or other departments, because their email extensions were not there.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Ms. Hogan, just to clarify that statement, you're not certain as to whether or not officials outside the Canada Border Services Agency, which may include the Public Health Agency of Canada, were invited to such dinners or events.

[Karen Hogan]

I am not certain. I can tell you that at least five of the employees on the emails we saw—granted, we potentially did not see all of them—were Canada Border Services employees.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

To the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada, in instances in your own department where an employee is offered gifts or invitations to dinner, are they reported to you? Who do they report them to?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Where gifts are offered to public servants, there is a reporting requirement. There are also conflict of interest declarations that can be filed.

I'll turn to Martin Krumins to speak to the controls.

[Martin Krumins]

As part of the contracting process at the Public Health Agency, we have a form that requires all managers who are proposing a contract to declare any conflict of interest. That would be the process that they would—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I'm afraid that is the time.

We'll turn now to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

What we've seen from Liberals thus far in this testimony is quite incredible. They're trying to limit witness testimony by moving motions in the middle of their testimony. Liberals are also trying to question the core principle of ministerial accountability. They're trying to suggest that ministers are somehow not responsible for what happens in their departments. This is really unprecedented. I think it's clear that in our system of government, ministers have been responsible for what happens in their departments for hundreds of years. Uniquely, Liberal ministers think they're not responsible for what happens under them.

Ms. Jeffrey, I want to ask you this. Canadians I talk to are horrified and disgusted by what happened with the ArriveCAN app. Do you think those feelings are justified?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We acknowledge that the governance that should have been in place for an IT project of this nature was—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm going to jump in. My time is tight. That wasn't my question.

Canadians are horrified and disgusted by what happened with this app. Do you think those feelings are justified?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I think there were many dimensions to the ArriveCAN app. I think there was value in terms of the services that were provided—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. Do you think Canadians are justified in feeling horrified and disgusted?