Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

[Michael Mills]

As we move increasingly into a data-driven digital age, it's important that public servants across all different categories have a much stronger digital background. One of the areas we're really focused on is what we need to do in terms of digital competency across our labour force, particularly those who are specifically in the IT space. We're thinking through, with our IT departments, what core competencies we need and what kinds of training and development programs we need going forward in a sustainable manner to make sure that we're always upscaling our IT professionals.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm just using my discretion. I want to go back to Nathalie, who asked a question. It was misunderstood. There was translation.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, could you please repeat your question to Mr. Laporte? Please be brief.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Sure. Thank you for this opportunity.

Mr. Laporte, thousands of contracts have been awarded in a non-competitive manner. First, it's hard to believe that all those contracts were awarded for completely legitimate reasons. Secondly, the ombudsman's and Auditor General's reports give us every reason to believe that there's a serious lack of documentation. As a result, Quebeckers and Canadians have no guarantee that this money is being spent properly.

Why has there been a surge in non-competitive awarding of contracts since 2017?

[Dominic Laporte]

As I mentioned, I can't comment on the validity of the reasons given for non-competitive awarding of contracts. I mentioned earlier that there are sometimes very good reasons or valid reasons based on trade agreements that will allow the government or an institution to award contracts in a non-competitive manner, particularly to meet urgent needs.

I would need more information if I wanted to take a position on the propriety of action taken or determine whether or not a contract was awarded in a non-competitive manner. I don't want to dodge the question, but I can't comment on all past contracts Public Services and Procurement Canada has awarded.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. Barrett for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In her report, the Auditor General said, “in our review of task authorizations that were issued by the Canada Border Services Agency and co-signed by Public Services and Procurement Canada, we found 2 resources being charged at the rate that required a minimum of 10 years of experience even though the resources did not have this level of experience.”

In a word or phrase, how would you characterize that, Mr. Mills? Is that an example of bait and switch, or is that fraud? What is that?

[Michael Mills]

Mr. Chair, certainly it is a requirement of those who are administering those contracts to ensure that the people being put forward meet the minimum requirements. In that case, they should have verified, if the requirement was 10 years, that the individual had it.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

So, it's fraud. They lied about the workers' experience to charge a higher rate.

[Michael Mills]

I'm not in a position to opine whether it's fraud.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are you in a position to say whether or not it was honest? My question is this: Was it a lie? The Auditor General wasn't opining. She analyzed the information and determined that what was said, what was signed off on, was not true—a minimum of 10 years of experience that did not exist. Is that honest or dishonest?

[Michael Mills]

I would not be able to opine whether it was honest or dishonest or an administrative error.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If we have a basic misunderstanding of what is honest and what is dishonest, that might be part of the problem. I think that maybe we should take a separate look at that. The procurement ombudsman found that named resources did not do the work that was stated at the skill level that was required 76% of the time. You said that the skill level of replacement workers had to match that of the workers who were originally authorized to do the work. Has an audit or a review been done to ensure that this was the case, having just noted that there was fraud committed as outlined by the Auditor General in the case I mentioned?

[Michael Mills]

I do believe that the procurement ombudsman said that 76% of names that were proposed at the bidding stage did not subsequently do work or have work billed against them. This is something that we are very focused on in terms of when people are being proposed so that we ensure that those being proposed are most likely to do the work and so that we verify that they do.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When they bait the hook with the skill set that they say they're offering and then switch it out and make sure that they get the maximum price possible and that Canadians get the least value possible, this is something that we would expect your department is safeguarding against.

Ms. Hogan, is it common practice across government contracting that high-priced consultants carry out a bait and switch, as has been identified in the procurement ombudsman's work, where they present experienced workers to get the contract and charge a higher rate and then actually swap them out for less experienced workers who can be paid less, and then they pocket the difference?

[Karen Hogan]

I can't comment on whether it's common practice. I can tell you that we saw it in some of the samples we looked at where the contract called for 10 years or more of experience and the individual who performed the work was not that way. But there is a mechanism in place in the public service when an individual who's put forward under a contract or task authorization needs to be switched. That should have happened, and we did not see that happening.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Right. Thank you very much.

I'll give my time to Mr. Brock, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a minute and a half.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Auditor General, does the PSPC need a court order from the RCMP to share their findings and suspicions?

[Karen Hogan]

It's my understanding that anyone can refer a matter to law enforcement, but typically we wait for law enforcement to ask us for a production order to provide evidence.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There would be nothing stopping them from doing that today, for instance, would there, to share their suspicions?

[Karen Hogan]

Not to my knowledge, no.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

Only under a Justin Trudeau government would public servants get a bonus for failing so badly. It's been discovered that PHAC paid out $340,000 in bonuses. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars were paid out to PSPC?

[Michael Mills]

I do not have the specific number about how much performance pay was paid out to executives. It's a normal part of the compensation package for executives within the Government of Canada. It's paid—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Were bonuses paid out during the “arrive scam” fiasco, yes or no?