Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to hear more about the internal processes at Public Services and Procurement Canada. In theory, when an employee notices that there are procedures that are repeatedly ignored by the client, what happens? Does this employee have a duty to raise this with their supervisor?

[Michael Mills]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see.

When this advice is repeatedly ignored, it raises questions that eventually rise to the upper echelons of the organization, doesn't it? I'm sure you'll agree that, in any organization, accountability increases as you go up the rungs. In this case, who in the organization was made aware of the challenge raised in the Auditor General's report? How far up the ladder did the issue go?

[Dominic Laporte]

From the information I've been able to get, it's gone up to the director general level in the organization. We'll get you those emails, or the names of the people, of course.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Who was this director general?

[Dominic Laporte]

I don't have his name. I wasn't with that group. I don't have that information on hand right now, but I'll be happy to provide it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right.

In that case, if you know that the procedure is not followed by the client department, why agree to co-sign? Why agree to take part of the responsibility?

[Dominic Laporte]

The ultimate decision to enter into a non-competitive arrangement rests with the client.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

And yet, you co-sign. You agree to shoulder part of the responsibility.

[Dominic Laporte]

Yes, task authorizations are co-signed afterwards. Before I venture any further, I must say that I wouldn't know exactly what we co-signed.

In this case, procedures were followed with regard to the notices that were given by our staff. This advice was given proactively, but the ultimate decision to choose a non-competitive procurement process was the client's. Clients make such decisions based on operational needs that we are not always aware of.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Auditor General, have there been any instances where Public Services and Procurement Canada has pointed out the non-competitive nature of an arrangement, but despite this has subsequently signed the arrangement?

[Karen Hogan]

With respect to arrangements resulting from a non-competitive process, Public Services and Procurement Canada signed contracts or specifications that were not clear enough. In my opinion, this does not comply with policy. Signing a document is indeed taking responsibility. That's clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue now on the issue brought up by Madame Sinclair-Desgagné, which was in relation to the contract requisition that was signed by the executive director of the business applications services directorate.

I understand that, in addition to this fact, there was also a portion of PSPC's work that looked at challenging the non-competitive process that was undertaken by CBSA to award the contract to GC Strategies. At what point was that challenge made to CBSA? Was that before or after the first signature by the executive director of the business applications services directorate?

Mr. Mills.

[Michael Mills]

We would have to validate the time. I don't have the timing sequence in front of me in terms of when issues were raised or questions were raised about going competitive versus non-competitive.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure. Thank you very much.

Ms. Hogan, maybe your team could shed some light on the order of precedence.

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you.

We are aware that in May 2020 there was an exchange of emails between PSPC and CBSA officials.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

According to any evidence from the Auditor General's office, was the person with the title executive director of the business applications services directorate privy to the challenge that was made at that time?

[Andrew Hayes]

They were.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How were they made privy to that information? Was it via email, or were they part of the actual process to challenge the Canada Border Services Agency?

[Andrew Hayes]

In the information we've seen, that person was copied on that email.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

At any moment, did that person raise any red flags or alarms in relation to the contracts they were signing?

[Andrew Hayes]

Not that we are aware of. However, it might be for PSPC to provide additional information on that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

PSPC, go ahead, please.

[Dominic Laporte]

I don't have the knowledge of what was done by the DG at that point.