Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Evelyn Dancey]

I'll take that question. Thank you for your question and for drawing attention to it.

That was a new and more specific disclosure in the past volume of the public accounts. In the 2022-23 year, there was an unusual and exceptional amount of contingent liabilities that were recognized as expenditures in relation, in particular, to indigenous claims, historical wrongdoing and redressing efforts.

The government thought it was important to be transparent about a number like that. It's clearly an indication of the advancement of a number of priorities on fronts related to reconciliation. It was fiscally quite significant, so the specific information was provided.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I'm afraid that is the time.

We're now going into our third round. As I mentioned before, it will be slightly truncated. Government members and the official opposition will each have four minutes, and they will each have two slots. The NDP and the Bloc will have two minutes each.

I'm turning now to Mr. Lawrence.

You have the floor for four minutes, please.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

My comments will be directed to the Treasury Board. My questions will be similar to the ones I asked the Auditor General. The Auditor General I think said she has reflected on some of the issues that have happened.

Of course, she's one of the last lines of defence. You're a bit further up the food chain, as it were. I believe it's your responsibility to make sure that taxpayer dollars are spent well.

Did the $60 million—at least, or so we think—that was spent on it represent a good use of taxpayers' money, and what regrets do you have?

[Monia Lahaie]

In our role at the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have policies and control frameworks in place and the delegation to departments and deputy heads for the internal control they have to put in place. I'm reassured in a small way that the Auditor General has recognized that the control frameworks and policies we have in place are at the adequate level, that the majority of departments are managing public funds appropriately and that public servants are doing a good job.

We are very concerned with what has been found and are taking that very seriously. We are pleased that the departments are agreeing with the recommendations and putting the action plans in place to address this for the future for Canadians.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That being said, I think that's cold comfort to the taxpayers, who saw $60 million wasted. Depending on which number you use, whether you use a $400,000 or $80,000 app, it's still millions of dollars that have been wasted. Are you saying there's nothing that Treasury Board could have done to prevent this?

[Monia Lahaie]

What I can say is that the frameworks in place and the delegations are at the right level. We do not want to pull the government to a stop by having too many rules. However, there needs to be continued room for improvement. That's what the Treasury Board Secretariat is looking at with our—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

In your current regulatory framework, do you have restrictions or provisions that prevent someone from being a contractor as well as an employee?

[Monia Lahaie]

I'm not the expert in that area of the policies. Our officials will be here next week, and they can be prepared to speak to that.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

In general, though, this is public accounts, so we're looking at the finances side. This is a framework issue.

Would you undertake to provide to us in writing, if you don't have it off the top of your head, whether there are policies that prevent contractors from also being employees?

[Monia Lahaie]

I can look into that.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I'll ask the same question of Finance. Do you have, within your department, any policies that prevent contractors from also being employees?

[Evelyn Dancey]

It would apply beyond Finance. It's for the whole public service. There is a code of values and ethics that all public servants must comply with. This is an employment requirement. It requires the ongoing daily consideration of potential conflicts of interest between your public service work and outside employment activities and other types of activities that you might be doing.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Would that prevent, then, an individual from being a contractor as well as an employee?

[Evelyn Dancey]

I don't want to pretend that I'm an expert on that code, but at a minimum, all of us would be required as public servants to think about it: Are my activities outside of my public service work in conflict with the work I do within the public service?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Do you know if—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time, unfortunately.

We'll turn now to Mr. Chen.

You have the floor for up to four minutes, please.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With the rise of extreme weather events and natural disasters, tackling climate change is now more important than ever. The good news is that Canadians and Canadian businesses are ready to step up. In 2022, Export Development Canada set the goal of providing $10 billion in support for clean-tech businesses in 2025. As of December 31, 2023, EDC has exceeded its target by providing more than $12 billion in financing and insurance solutions.

Could you share how many businesses were supported through these investments and also provide some examples to our committee?

[Mairead Lavery]

We support approximately 400. It's been incrementally growing each year, so I'll say it's in the 400 range. The primary contributor is renewable energy. There's a lot of renewable energy in the numbers you quoted for our businesses, which were facilitated with over $12 billion. However, you would see other examples of clean tech with water usage and lots of processes that actually make manufacturing processes more efficient.

Anything that reduces the use of resources, whether that's electricity as a resource or water as a resource, we will include in our definition of clean technology. It's over 400 Canadian companies.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

That is certainly great news.

I also understand that in 2021, EDC became the world's first export credit agency to commit to achieving net-zero emissions by 2050.

Could you share more details with our committee about this particular commitment, the progress that has been made so far and what work lies ahead?

[Mairead Lavery]

We were the first export credit agency, and, indeed, at COP28 last year, we also signed up to be a founding member of the Net-Zero Export Credit Agencies Alliance under the banner of GFANZ, so we are participating in that as well.

With our plans, we have been working on this since well before we made the commitment to net zero and have been taking the opportunity to reduce the carbon intensity of the portfolio we support. Included within that was stopping support for the international financing of fossil fuels.

I am pleased to announce we did set some targets to achieve that in the period from the 2018 baseline, and we have overachieved those. We have also gone with science-based targets to ensure we continue to look at the support we provide.

However, most importantly, which is really important for Canadian companies, we are there to help them on their journey and help them understand what they need to think about. It's not only the risks to their business models by the effects of climate action but how this represents opportunities for Canadian companies in the international sphere given the system of regulation in Canada, particularly around labour laws, and given the abundance of clean energy in Canada. These are all selling points for Canadian companies to now be part of international supply chains.

We ask companies to start focusing on scope 3 emissions. We want to ensure that Canadian companies can access that. To access that, they need to understand the advantages they have here at home. We're also working with them to help them promote their participation in international supply chains.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is the time for that round of questions.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had a whole bunch of other questions for everybody, but I have to go back to the same subject because this is too important.

To summarize the situation, in 2020, the government launched the Canada emergency business account program; it handed responsibility for it to Export Development Canada, or EDC; EDC delegated that responsibility by awarding a contract non-competitively to Accenture on the grounds that it was an emergency. That was permitted—it's good that we have the Treasury Board—during the pandemic, but one had to be careful, because the Treasury Board nevertheless issued a directive that this type of contract be awarded sparingly, knowing that sometimes there's no justification for using emergency as a reason, even during a pandemic.

So, to sum up, we realize that, although program management was delegated to Accenture, it was ultimately administered by the banks, which themselves provided the $60,000 loans to businesses. A business had to apply and the bank had to provide the loan. So the banks were very involved.

Again, I have a really hard time understanding how a government could possibly set up a program during the pandemic and hand it to a Crown corporation, which then awards the contract, without a call for tenders, to a consulting firm, even though we know that many businesses can manage call centres. The winning firm therefore won the contract on a non-competitive basis and built a website at a cost of tens of millions of dollars as part of a program that was ultimately managed by financial institutions.

That's a quick summary—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please be brief.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I would like to move the following motion:

That the committee request the Auditor General to conduct an audit of the management of CEBA, including the roles and responsibilities of suppliers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. You're putting that on notice, then.