Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

I often get asked questions, and I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you what I would have done. Hindsight is lovely as well. I can't tell you whether I would have decided that this was the next audit or one of the most important audits we should have focused on, but I can tell you that we pay attention to what's going on.

For example, there was a great deal of concern around the sustainable development technology foundation. We talked to the department responsible, and they took some action. We watched that play out. When we saw the preliminary report, we felt that more was needed, and as you know, we started an audit on SDTC. Just because we don't respond immediately doesn't mean we aren't listening and paying attention to what's going on around us.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that, because I think it can be reassuring to Canadians that the Office of the Auditor General is on the job.

I agree with you that the scope of the ArriveCAN contracting situation is of great concern. We had the procurement ombud here the other day and had to ask him several times to clarify the statements being made by the leader of the official opposition, who said that 76% of subcontractors didn't do any work. In other words, they were paid and didn't do any work. The ombud was very careful to correct that statement, saying it had to do with a bait and switch gambit that the contractors were using.

Auditor General, how do you feel when your words are taken out of context?

[Karen Hogan]

The English and French languages are complex. We try so hard to make sure that our reports are easy to understand, but at times they are misunderstood.

I watched the testimony of the procurement ombud and I thought he was very clear in explaining his words. I would hope that all parliamentarians and all Canadians remember that he tried to clarify what it was. I would do the same should it happen to me.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

The spring reports will be coming out in a few weeks, and we look forward to seeing those. Can you describe somewhat how you and your office go about constructing your message? Are you looking for that hit? Are you looking for those headlines? What is it you're trying to convey to Canadians when you issue your reports?

[Karen Hogan]

When we do our work, we try to be very factual about what we saw and what we heard, and we provide some background information about the subject matter. We try to balance our message. When we can talk about the good work the public service does, we do so. When we identify opportunities for improvement, we explain them and issue recommendations. It's my goal to make sure our reports are balanced so that we can encourage confidence and trust in the federal government when it's needed, but also identify opportunities for improvement.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the many witnesses for being with us today.

I'm going to jump right into my questions for Ms. Lavery from Export Development Canada.

Good afternoon, Ms. Lavery. This is the first time I've seen you here at committee. I have a number of questions for you. Let's start with the Canada emergency business account. I imagine you're familiar with that program.

[Mairead Lavery]

I do.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You were mandated by the government to manage this program. However, we learned through various articles that Accenture was hired by Export Development Canada to manage the program.

Is that correct, Ms. Lavery?

[Mairead Lavery]

That is correct. We were appointed as the administrator for the Canada emergency business account program. Accenture is a contractor to EDC for that program.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

How much did Accenture receive from Export Development Canada to manage the Canada emergency business account?

[Mairead Lavery]

The latest data is for the full contract value from 2000, when we started the program. There were approximately 31 contracts awarded to Accenture for a total value of $208 million.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Did you say $280 million?

[Mairead Lavery]

Yes. It was $208 million.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. So we're talking about $208 million.

How is it that these contracts are not on the Open Government website, as required by the government's transparency and accountability criteria?

[Mairead Lavery]

The contracts have been available on Merx as of 2021. Prior to that they were not published, but they were available through EDC.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Why are the contracts from before 2021 not on the Open Government site?

[Mairead Lavery]

At that time, EDC did not report their contracts on the site.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

The article states that there are expenditures totalling $67 million. However, we learned through an access to information request that the Accenture contract to manage the Canada emergency business account, which was introduced recently, more specifically during the pandemic, is worth $146 million. However, it was impossible to find this information online. It had to come through an access to information request.

Knowing that this program is very simple, I wonder what Accenture did in exchange for $208 million. Financial institutions such as Desjardins loaned an amount directly to businesses. So there was no management of the government's financial flow or cash flow. We can agree that financial institutions manage themselves.

What did Accenture do for such a large sum of money, Ms. Lavery?

[Mairead Lavery]

As I said, there were 31 contracts that covered a number of activities that Accenture performed over the period when the CEBA program was launched, which was April 2020. At that time, it was anticipated that EDC would need support to engage what ended up being 233 financial institutions to establish with them a program to receive funds from the Government of Canada, which were then distributed onward to what ended up being 898,000 companies across Canada.

That program was subsequently amended six times. To enable that program to be facilitated, significant legal agreements had to be defined with individual financial institutions, as well as some institutions in combination. Also, at different points in the program, we established that we needed a call centre to handle questions. At one point, the program was receiving 10,000 calls—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm sorry, but that call centre just doesn't exist. The businesses that were deemed ineligible had no one to answer their questions. That complaint was made on numerous occasions. Even the Minister of Small Business knows this is a problem.

I will repeat my question. Basically, what work has Accenture done?

No one here can convince me that financial institutions need assistance from Accenture to make $60,000 loans. No one here will believe that Accenture needs $146 million to help Canadian or Quebec financial institutions make $60,000 loans.

I'd like access to the contracts with Accenture since the Canada emergency business account was introduced, because we need to look at this more closely.

The businesses just didn't get an answer. They had no way find out more about the eligibility criteria.

In addition, this program was particularly poorly managed, especially toward the end. A very large number of businesses were asking for an extra year and were denied. This led to an insolvency rate not seen in 10 years and the number of bankruptcies in Canada shot up 41% in 2023.

Did we get our money's worth, given what we spent with Accenture to have it manage a program that was ultimately managed by private financial institutions, not EDC, and even less so by Accenture? I seriously doubt it.

Would you be willing to share the contracts between EDC and Accenture, at least since 2020 and since the Canada emergency business account was introduced?

[Mairead Lavery]

Mr. Chair, do I have time to respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, you do.

[Mairead Lavery]

Thank you.

As I said, the call centre was one of the individual activities that Accenture performed. However, there were many other activities to enable the exchange of information with regard to the loan-holders, of which there were 898,000. They had to demonstrate an attestation. As the program developed, they also had to provide expense details to enable eligibility to the program.

All of that data had to be analyzed and assessed for loan-holders to receive the individual loans. Accenture provided support for that. They also provided support for the exchange of data between the banks and EDC to enable reporting and transparency on the loans that were being provided, as well as the technology teams to facilitate money flows and the proper recording thereof.

There was significant staff augmentation as well to include such items as programming interfaces, the call centre, as I mentioned, and the website, which was also available to recipients and potential recipients of CEBA during that time period.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

There was a request for documents, I believe. Is that something you can provide to the committee as well?