Public Accounts Committee on March 5th, 2024

[Mark Weber]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You're saying that the ArriveCAN app should not be used going forward, so I'm asking if it's because you think the app is not good for the border. Is it because it is replacing CBSA officers? Is it because it's impacting them and their mental health, their ability to work and their low morale, as you've outlined?

Is it the cost of the application that you think is too much, and those resources could be placed elsewhere? We've seen the Conservatives refuse to allow for more resources to be given to the CBSA.

[Mark Weber]

Resources are a concern, obviously. As I said, we need more people. It's the security aspect too. When we're expecting travellers to self-declare that they're smuggling, we're asking for a lot of things to be coming into Canada that shouldn't be there. That's essentially what we're doing now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is all of our time.

Mr. Weber, I want to thank you for coming in. I understand there's some information you're going to provide to this committee afterwards.

I'm going to suspend for one minute to excuse Mr. Weber and have our next witness come in. We'll get started in about 60 seconds.

I suspend this meeting. Thank you again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting back to order.

I'd like to welcome, from the Association of Canadian Financial Officers, Dany Richard, the president. Thank you for joining us today.

We're running a little behind schedule, but just so everyone knows, it's my intention to get us through three rounds. That will take us to 5:30. The last round is going to be somewhat truncated. The government and official opposition members will have four minutes, and the other two parties will have two minutes each. I will do everything I can to get us finished by 5:30.

Mr. Richard, you'll be given five minutes for an opening statement. It's over to you, please.

[Dany Richard, President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Dany Richard. I am the president for the Association of Canadian Financial Officers. We are North America’s largest union that exclusively represents accountants, comptrollers, auditors and other financial professionals. We have more than 7,000 members in over 70 departments within the Canadian federal public service and at Nav Canada. The majority of our members hold a professional designation such as CPA. They play a pivotal role in ensuring the effective management of the public purse.

Having reviewed the Auditor General’s report on ArriveCAN, I was severely disappointed with the findings and the implications for the integrity of internal controls and financial oversight within the federal public service during the pandemic. You don’t have to be an accountant to understand the importance of maintaining proper financial records.

Had our members been properly consulted in this process, establishing a governance structure is something that any one of them would have immediately identified as essential, but during the rush of COVID–19, certain basic best practices were ignored in the interest of time. Corners were cut, and that comes with a risk—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We have a point of order from Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

This is a key witness, but the camera is remaining on you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, that is most definitely something we want corrected.

Pardon me, Mr. Richard. Back to you, please. You're welcome to start the sentence over.

[Dany Richard]

I was an accountant for the federal government for 10 years, and I, personally, saw how a proper financial framework can help to ensure that every taxpayer dollar is taken into account and put to good use. While I'm disappointed by the report findings, I cannot say I'm surprised.

As a union, our job is to defend our members' interests. All too often, we receive a call from a member who is faced with a difficult choice: Should they blow the whistle by speaking up at the risk of jeopardizing their career or do they simply flag their concerns and walk away? It is incredibly difficult to support and encourage our members to do the right thing when too often, even if they speak up, their advice and recommendations are ignored.

This was all but confirmed when we surveyed our members at CBSA, PSPC and PHAC about their involvement in the development and implementation of ArriveCAN. Of the nearly 1,000 members we have across all three departments, fewer than a dozen members reported their involvement with ArriveCAN.

Unsurprisingly, five of our members said they witnessed something that didn’t sit well with them. Most of those individuals indicated that they had flagged their concerns to management, so why were so few of our knowledgeable and experienced financial professionals in these departments consulted? Why did those small few who were consulted, who did the right thing by raising their concerns, get pushed aside?

Now, let me be clear. I believe in the government’s financial framework when it is adhered to. When the Financial Administration Act is followed properly, it ensures responsible fiscal management within the Canadian government.

The governance rules are clear, but what do we do when the rules put in place for sound financial stewardship aren’t being followed? As financial professionals, we have the ethical obligation to speak up, but this ethical obligation gets bypassed by hiring consultants to be yes-men—for untold amounts. Instead, we should be relying on the institutional knowledge and expertise housed within government at no additional cost to the taxpayers. This is why we must reduce the reliance on contractors, listen to our in-house experts and find better ways to protect whistle-blowers on occasions like this so that people aren’t afraid to speak up.

The data on this fear is clear. In the last annual public service employee survey, only 55% of our members at CBSA said they would feel comfortable initiating a formal complaint without fear of reprisal. It’s hard to challenge someone when the very person you’re challenging is the one who will be assessing your performance at the end of the year. Simply put, whistle-blowers often become scapegoats.

Our members can ensure blunders like this don’t happen, but we must let them do their job instead of pushing them aside. We shouldn’t be contracting out work that can be performed by public servants at a much lower cost, all while reducing taxpayers’ confidence in how their tax dollars are being spent. I often hear that consultants are needed as they do the work cheaper, faster and better, but what happened with ArriveCAN is a clear example as to why that’s not always true.

I thank you for your time and welcome any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

With an eye on the clock and the resources, the first round, which is normally six minutes, will be five minutes.

Mrs. Block, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Richard, for joining us today.

I appreciated your opening statements. I also appreciated an article I read that I believe you wrote back in 2021. I may ask some questions about that article as well.

In your opening statement, you referred to hearing complaints from your members at PHAC, CBSA and PSPC. You also mentioned that members are afraid to raise complaints for fear of reprisal and will often just flag concerns and move on.

Do you know who your members raised their concerns to?

[Dany Richard]

We don't have the exact details, and I can tell you why. Our members are afraid. In preparation for this committee appearance, we sent out a survey urgently last Friday to hear from them. The survey was anonymous. People gave us information, but they didn't want to give us their names.

I had a few people reach out to me personally—because they know me—and say, “Dany, you cannot name me on this.” They're concerned for their well-being. Blowing the whistle doesn't do you any good. In terms of their exact involvement, they don't want to highlight it because they're concerned for their well-being.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

If your members who have concerns were to raise them with someone within the organization, would it be the CFO?

[Dany Richard]

It depends on which level they're at. Generally speaking, we always advise our members to raise it to their immediate supervisor, and most often that wouldn't be the CFO. It could be people at various levels. That said, I've been president since 2016. When a member tells me they've seen wrongdoing, I will tell them to raise it, document it and then let it go.

I'm embarrassed that I have to say that to my own members. What I'd rather say is that we're going to fight it and we're going to help them. However, because they're not protected, we have to tell them they need to do the right thing, and the right thing is to raise it to the employer at any level. I say raise it, document it and then let it go, because I can't tell you one case I've ever heard of that had a favourable outcome for a whistle-blower.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

For me, that is absolutely concerning. I recognize that just recently we had a colleague introduce a private member's bill in regard to whistle-blowing, and I recognize that it is an issue.

You also stated that fewer than a dozen of the 1,000 members you have across these three departments were consulted on the ArriveCAN app and that they all raised concerns. I think what this does is raise concerns for us. It raises two that I can think of right away. The first is that so few financial officers were consulted. The second is they raised concerns but those concerns were brushed aside. It does seem to be par for the course with the current government to disregard concerns about overspending.

Have any of your members—and you may have already answered this for me—reported reprisal actions related to ArriveCAN?

[Dany Richard]

No, they have not. However, I think it's because they know not to push too hard.

Look at the stories we hear in the media about what happens to whistle-blowers. Remember, the majority of our members are accountants, and they have a code of conduct with an obligation to raise anomalies. They have to do it. I'm happy that they do, but because we're not protecting them, it's hard for them to go further.

None of them has raised to us specifically that they've been reprised against, but when you look at the government's own internal survey, the data is clear. Our members are saying, “I don't feel comfortable raising issues. I fear reprisals.”

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I want to move to the point about consultants and procuring the services of consultants.

You mentioned that consultants are used, you believe, to sidestep financial accountability by replacing public servants with consultants. In the article you wrote, I believe back in 2021, you stated, “At any given time, an alarming percentage of the public service workforce is in what our colleagues at PIPSC have dubbed the shadow public service.”

I'm wondering if you can tell us a bit more about that shadow public service and what it is costing Canadians.

[Dany Richard]

Often, when people want a project to go forward, our members can be seen as barriers, as sticks in people's wheels, as if finance and accountants are not conducive; they're not helping. They ask how they can bypass them and say, “We know what we want to do, so let's get the results.” Then, instead of going to an accountant, they outsource and go to a firm that will deliver exactly the results they're getting.

I've seen members who do costing reports or financial forecasts being told, “We don't like that number.” Members will say, “Well, the number is what it is. I'm not here to give you the result you're looking for. I'm telling you that this is what the number is.” The shadow public service could be used to say, “If we want to bypass the internal controls, let's outsource the work. Let's go to people who will give us what we want.”

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Richard. I'm sure members will come back to that. I need to move on.

I'll turn now to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thanks for coming to the committee.

Can you describe to the committee who your union represents?

[Dany Richard]

Certainly. We represent accountants, comptrollers and anyone who works in finance or audit. They're primarily our members. We have 7,000 members across Canada in over 70 departments.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What are the departments?

[Dany Richard]

There are over 70 of them. It would probably be easier for me to name the departments that we don't represent.