Public Accounts Committee on March 5th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'll pick up on my earlier questions.

You said that, in general, the internal controls worked. That's all well and good. However, the Auditor General told us about cases of non‑compliance with processes at Canada Border Services Agency, Shared Services Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada.

Do you think that the ArriveCAN case, which the Auditor General went over with a fine‑tooth comb, is an isolated example?

[Dany Richard]

I can't comment on that. In general, when internal controls are applied, there aren't any issues and nothing to report. When internal controls are ignored so that things can be done more quickly, these types of situations may arise. However, I don't have any information on the matter to show that this involves a certain percentage or a certain amount of money. I can tell you—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I understand that you can't provide figures, but I imagine that you receive complaints. You recently received some complaints from Canada Border Services Agency employees. I imagine that you receive complaints of this nature at other times as well, and that this hasn't just happened in the past few weeks.

[Dany Richard]

Yes. I'll give you an example.

Section 34 of the Financial Administration Act states that, when an invoice is received from a supplier, someone must be able to certify that the goods or services were delivered. That's normal. If I ordered 10 chairs, I must check whether I received them all. Obviously, it's harder to verify whether $10,000 or $100,000 worth of services were delivered, especially if there aren't any breakdowns. Clearly, this area is more conducive to fraud.

To answer your question, yes, our members do sometimes share their concerns with us, or ask us questions about situations that they see. This doesn't necessarily mean that these are fraud cases. It may just mean that more oversight is needed.

I can't say that there are in fact fraud cases. However, I can tell you that anomalies are reported, and that's normal.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Richard, you just said that you were concerned about possible budget cuts in the public service. In December, we spent 30 hours voting. The Conservatives voted 120 times, over and over again, to cut a number of programs and services in Canada.

What expertise would we lose as a result of the cuts that affect your members? On average, how many years of experience and training do your members have? What would we lose if the Conservatives came back to power and implemented the budget cuts that they voted for in December?

[Dany Richard]

In terms of governance, it's good practice to review expenses. You have to consider whether the expenses incurred are a good investment. When you cut things by 2%, 5% or 10%, without necessarily reviewing each case, you may make cuts that shouldn't be made. In general, every dollar invested in financial auditing provides a return on investment.

On average, our members are 40 years old, and most of them are accountants. This means that they have a bachelor's degree, which includes an internship, or a graduate degree. They want to do their job. If you want to find out where to save money, ask the accountants.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Well put.

You mentioned earlier the Financial Administration Act and the fact that if it had been followed, we wouldn't have had this myriad of scandals we saw with ETS under Harper, the Phoenix scandal we've had under both Harper and the current government and the ArriveCAN scandal we have right now.

Why is it not being followed? Is it being overridden? Is it because the political deciders are simply saying it's not important to follow? Why is it being overridden so often?

[Dany Richard]

It's case by case. In this particular case with ArriveCAN, I can only tell you what I've heard from two members. I can't reveal their identities, but they were basically told, “We don't have time for governance.”

Don't get me wrong. There's a time and place to tolerate a bit more risk, but you have to realize what kind of risk you're taking and what your risk mitigation strategies are.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Richard. I'm going to give Mr. Julian another two minutes at the end, so I'm going to have you briefly wrap it up there.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

There's been $21 billion spent on outside contracting by the NDP-Liberal government, and it looks like they're going to continue that trend. Is that acceleration to historic levels something that concerns your members?

[Dany Richard]

Yes. Look, there's a time and place for using consultants. There's nothing inherently wrong when it's done for the right reasons, but when it becomes the de facto practice, it is an issue.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

On the failed arrive scam program, which we saw both the NDP and Liberals vote to continue to pour more money into, two of the highest paid contractors received a combined total of $27 million, with 30% commissions on the $27 million going to four people.

I'm sure that would not meet with the approval of your members—the expenditure of those funds on four people, instead of investments in more resources, personnel or training for your members.

[Dany Richard]

I can tell you that had my members seen this, flags would have been raised.

There's something known as a price review. I'll give an example of a chair. If you're selling a chair to the Government of Canada, are you selling me that chair at a price you would normally charge someone else in another company, or are you charging me more because I am the Government of Canada? By doing a simple market comparison, we could say these rates make sense. Does the work you're asking to be performed take that amount of time normally?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You talk about flags being raised. These are two companies with four employees doing $27 million in business. Is that something that would raise red flags?

[Dany Richard]

If my members had been consulted and had compared it to what something is normally worth in the market, yes, they would have raised a flag. Again, I can't speak to this particular example, because I don't know if that's normal or not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you believe that Canadian taxpayers got good value for money with the ArriveCAN app?

[Dany Richard]

I can't comment because there's not even a financial record of how much was spent. To assess the value for money for Canadians, you need to know exactly how much was spent, and we can't even do basic.... Based on the Auditor General's report, we can't even identify how much ArriveCAN actually cost.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Would you say there was good financial oversight or project management?

[Dany Richard]

No, there was definitely not good financial oversight.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you ever seen a project that has been as mismanaged as ArriveCAN, which the Auditor General said she believes cost about $60 million? I'm sure you would agree that it's an indictment of financial record-keeping when you have the Auditor General saying she can't definitively say what the project cost was.

[Dany Richard]

I've never seen something of this nature. For my members, it's very frustrating, because if any one of them had been consulted, you could have just let us do our job. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. This is basic bookkeeping. It is easy to prevent these things.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How long did you work for PSPC?

[Dany Richard]

It was for approximately 10 years.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In your decade at PSPC, how often did you see bait and switch, as described by the procurement ombudsman, used in contracting?