Public Accounts Committee on March 5th, 2024

[Mark Weber]

Do you mean paper-based specifically for gathering COVID-related information, or do you mean in general for customs purposes?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I mean in general.

[Mark Weber]

In general, there are uses for that and there are uses for an automated system. One of the uses we can see being worthwhile with an app like ArriveCAN is that if people could do their declaration on the ArriveCAN app, that would be there for the officer to look at when the traveller presents themselves to the officer. That would be useful.

The difficulty we're seeing with it right now, though, is that the ArriveCAN app and other technologies they have at airports, such as PIK machines, are being used to entirely replace the officer. You're depending on travellers to, hopefully, self-declare, I guess, if they're planning on bringing something in that we don't want to get in.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You feel that there's still value in using the app and seeing an officer.

[Mark Weber]

Yes. Again, technologies are useful as long there is that interaction with the officer and there's an officer there.

Yes, we're open to any technologies that can help. Right now, what ArriveCAN is being used for and the way it's being used are not useful in terms of our border processes and keeping Canadians safe.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you think that going back to a paper-based system would—I think you did kind of answer this question—reduce wait times at the border crossings and the airports?

[Mark Weber]

It could.

Again, to reduce wait times, you need people at border crossings and airports. That's the main thing you could do. There's nothing that's as efficient or as secure as a properly staffed border.

We see this at airports with the introduction of PIK machines, which have now largely replaced officers. The idea was that they would speed up the process, and now we see the same lineups or longer waiting to deal with a PIK machine rather than an officer. If the technology is used with an officer, there's usefulness to it. If not, we really don't see the point.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

I'd like to put forward a motion at this point:

That, given the grave concerns surrounding the CEO of Dalian and former 2021 People’s Party of Canada candidate David Yeo, the committee hold one meeting and call:

(1) Deputy Minister of National Defence Bill Matthews

(2) Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) Troy Crosby

(3) Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources—Civilian) Isabelle Desmartis.

I'm moving this motion, and I hope there is a quick resolution.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Yip. The clerk has received that, and we'll disseminate it.

Mr. Weber, I apologize. We're going to try to get through this quickly.

Mr. Barrett, go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

This could find easy support there, but we need to amend it to include the minister and the individual, Mr. Yeo. It seems to be an easy thing to add. The subject of the motion should be invited to appear as a witness, along with the minister, because ministerial accountability is the cornerstone of our Westminster system. I will put forward both of those as amendments to the motion, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We're now debating the amendment to the motion.

We'll hear from Mr. Julian, Mr. Brock and then Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Julian, you have the floor.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I hope we can dispense with this quickly, because I have a number of questions for Mr. Weber. I thank him of course for the service of the CBSA agents and members of this union across the country. I'm supporting the motion. I also think the amendment makes sense. I think we can dispense with this rapidly and then hopefully move back to witness testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I have Mr. Brock and then Ms. Khalid, Ms. Shanahan and Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm pleased to hear, Mr. Chair, that the NDP is in support not only of the motion, but of the amendment.

It was rather disappointing last week that we had Mr. Weber here at committee, essentially doing what he's doing today. Unfortunately, Liberal members filibustered the time we had available to hear Mr. Weber, and we had to let him go.

At the crux of this are full transparency and accountability. I think the motion brought by MP Yip goes only so far. Certainly, the amendments brought by Mr. Barrett close the gap and allow this committee to truly function as a committee and get to the heart of the matter, because all of them have important information to share. For that reason, I'm in full support of the amendment.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

I appreciate the amendments put forward. I think it's important for us to really get to the bottom of an issue and find the right witnesses to do so. My thing is the minister doesn't have any role in hiring at all.

I completely agree with having Mr. Yeo come and present. I'm wondering whether it would be more practical for us to focus just on the people who can actually answer the questions, rather than go down the partisan “the Liberals are the reason the whole world is wrong” path. Let's just try to get to the bottom of this by using the deputy minister and Mr. Yeo as witnesses on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I, too, would just like to reiterate that our objection was not to Mr. Yeo. That's certainly not the case. Our objection was to the way in which the motion was sprung on us at the last meeting. I'm glad to see that this is a more fulsome discussion of what it is we're trying to achieve here.

I agree, as well, that in keeping with this committee, which normally has a work plan and a set list of witnesses, which would be the deputy minister and not the minister.... I remember so well long-time NDP member Mr. Christopherson making the point that we should not let deputy ministers off the hook; that it should be deputy ministers who answer questions in public accounts, because we're dealing with process and not policy; and that if we ever let that go, it would undermine the credibility and the fact-finding of the public accounts committee.

I agree with inviting Mr. Yeo and the deputy minister, but it is not necessary to have the minister. The minister was not involved in this process.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To begin with, I still haven't received the motion, not even by email, so I'm not sure of the exact language in the French. I'll need to see it in writing before deciding anything.

As for the substance of the motion, overall, I agree with Mr. Julian. I appreciated his comment. It was simple and straightforward.

We support the motion and the amendment. It goes without saying—ministerial accountability matters. What's more, it's important for the committee to hear from the CEO of Dalian as well, given how much the company has received in contracts since 2004.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. Thank you.

You'll be next, Mr. Brock, but just hold on. I want to confer with the clerk.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, could I ask for a quick suspension so that Madam Sinclair-Desgagné can receive the motion in French?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure. I'll suspend—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We're just working on that. It will be out shortly.

Mr. Julian, go ahead.