Public Accounts Committee on April 3rd, 2024

[Jonathan Moor]

I said at the start that we did not have a separate code for all the different activities. It did all go into this fund, and we learned that lesson. That was a mistake; we should have set up separate codes at the start. I'm afraid that is part of the problem of being able to identify exactly where the funding went.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Hence, I concluded that this was a slush fund rather than an emergency management fund.

Mr. Chair, I think that's my time. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It is, Mr. Viersen. Thank you very much.

I'll move on to Mrs. Shanahan, who is joining us virtually.

You have the floor, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too thank the witnesses for appearing here today.

I appreciate some of the testimony we just heard regarding the emergency management fund. I'd like to ask Mr. Moor if there is anything he can add to that.

I have one of the largest land borders crossings in my riding of Châteauguay—Lacolle, and many CBSA workers live in the riding, so I know how much they were working during that time and the pressures they faced in addition to their usual duties. I'd like to hear more, please.

[Jonathan Moor]

Our priority at all times was the health and safety of our officers on the front line and that of our staff at headquarters. We were providing them with sufficient PPE to do their job, which at that time was considered very dangerous. They were meeting people who were returning to the country and who may well have had COVID. As I have said previously, there was a lot of fear about whether they could catch COVID from touching papers, so one of the main reasons the ArriveCAN app was developed was to allow information to be given electronically.

Our officers were definitely looking for reassurance and we provided that reassurance to the best of our ability. We provided it through PPE and, as I've said before, through sanitization cabinets, which weren't available at all ports of entry but are now a standard feature. We took health and safety very seriously and that was all managed by the internal task force.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Mr. Moor, you mentioned in your opening remarks something to the effect that it should have been created earlier. I just wanted to clarify whether you were talking about the ArriveCAN app. I know from my travels, including to Australia, that the electronic border entry app is mandatory. It's certainly very critical to the proper management of border entry.

[Jonathan Moor]

No, I think I was talking about setting up a separate accounting code. Actually, the app was developed in about six weeks, which was incredibly fast given the challenges that everyone was facing at the time of COVID.

The Auditor General did identify that there was an ongoing benefit from the ArriveCAN app, because it is still used. In fact, I used it yesterday myself. By having it in airports, about 300,000 people a month use it, which is just over 3.5 million people a year.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I appreciate that, and I do agree.

With that, Chair, I move the following:

That, when the committee undertakes to invite witnesses:

(a) a witness list submission deadline be set by the chair, with the explicit consent of the committee;

(b) witnesses be invited proportionally to each recognized party’s standing in the House; and

(c) no witness be invited without instruction of the committee.

Chair, that motion can be delivered to all members forthwith.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mrs. Shanahan. Have you delivered it to the clerk in both official languages?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I believe so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll suspend and huddle with the clerk for a second. In the meantime, if you could, check please. I've paused the time.

Mr. Desjarlais, I assume you want to speak to this, or is it a point of order?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's a point of order in relation to supplying the motion. Did the clerk send it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to check that with the clerk right now.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay. I understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Viersen, is that a point of order?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

It's on the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. Just one second, please.

Mrs. Shanahan, the clerk will send the motion to members in a few moments.

I take it that you are tabling the motion. I will come back to you in a second and allow you to respond. It is in the broad category of committee business, which of course is acceptable, but it does not pertain to the business at hand of this ongoing meeting.

You are welcome to respond to that. We of course can pick it up. I am willing to seek additional time on Tuesday, if you're in agreement.

Go ahead, please, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, I am moving this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am going to rule it out of order. I'll explain why. It does not pertain to the business at hand. It is a broad motion with respect to how this committee can operate. Of course, we could pick it up next week.

I'll turn to members. I propose that we finish off today's meeting with the witnesses we have and then deal with this motion early next week.

Mrs. Shanahan, you still have two minutes—

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I challenge that decision, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good. Let's have a vote, then.

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The committee has overruled the chair, so we are going to debate this motion.

Mr. Viersen, it looks like you're up first. It's over to you, please.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm relatively new to this committee and I recall Mrs. Shanahan naming Mr. Christopherson, with whom I had the privilege of serving on committee in the past. She laid out for me very early on in my time here that this committee generally operated on a consensus basis. She was the one who informed me Mr. Christopherson said that when this committee was working well, you couldn't tell which party a member was from, or whether they were an opposition member or a government member.

I therefore find it quite surprising that this motion is coming from Mrs. Shanahan in particular, as it demands that there should be equal representation among witnesses based on party allocation. I don't think that is in the spirit of this committee and I will vote against the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Although you know that I appreciate your work on this—