Public Accounts Committee on March 31st, 2022

[Mary Crescenzi]

Thank you, Deputy.

I would be pleased to share a copy of the plan.

The plan looked at four or five major elements. One was in regard to training. The others were in regard to tools and procedures, system enhancements, communication and, of course, the quality and timeliness regimes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

In response to the assessment of the backlogged inspections, the direction from the Auditor General was to balance those inspections with new ones taking place. You responded with a national workload strategy, in paragraph 13.72, which would be a key to holding the balance of these two workloads.

Is this strategy different from the action plan? If so, can you also provide a copy and an update to this committee?

[Mary Crescenzi]

The national workload strategy is a supplemental document that was tied to the work of the national steering committee and the action plan. The national workload strategy was developed in July. What it looked at was the data and information that we had, as well as the capacity of our workforce, taking into account the recommendations from the OAG that we needed to look at our capacity and the areas of priority.

With regard to the pre-COVID backlog, we are pleased to indicate that our workload strategy reduced the pre-COVID backlog by 92%—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. My time is limited, so I will take your assurance of tabling the plan.

The report references three kinds of quarantine and post-quarantine audits, but ESDC also does audits that are not pandemic-related. These are risk-based audits and audits that preceded the pandemic.

Were these inspection audits, particularly following COVID outbreaks, around housing standards—we will get to that shortly—coordinated with local health authorities and local provincial authorities?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to end it there, Mr. Epp. We will have to come back to that.

I turn now to MP Shanahan. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses who are with us today.

Although this is the first time we have examined this problem since the pandemic began, it is not only a pandemic problem. It is a long-standing problem.

I have some questions, and I think Mr. Tremblay will be able to answer them. If h doesn't have the answers now, he can get back to the committee with the information.

First, I'd like to know how many temporary foreign workers come to Canada every year, how many of them are farm workers, and of those, how many work in Quebec.

Second, I'd like some employer statistics so that I can compare the situation in Quebec with the situation in the rest of Canada. How many employer are currently not in compliance with the inspection rules?

Are you able to answer those questions?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

In 2020‑21, we had 129,000 foreign workers, and in 2021‑22, we had approximately 120,000. The number of employers across all sectors was 27,000 in 2020‑21 and around 24,000 in 2021‑22.

In the farming sector, we had 5,000 employers in 2020‑21, and the number was roughly the same in 2021‑22. As for agricultural temporary foreign workers, we had 77,000 in 2020‑21, which accounts for 59% of all foreign workers. In 2021‑22, we had about 70,000.

I'm looking for the figures for Quebec. I don't know the numbers for every province off the top of my head. I'm not sure whether anyone from my team is able to answer that right now.

No matter, we can get back to you with the information, and if we find it before the end of the meeting, we will let you know.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

You can continue, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for those figures.

In my riding of Châteauguay—Lacolle, which could soon become Châteauguay—Les Jardins‑de‑Napierville, we host at least 6,000 temporary foreign workers every year. You can appreciate, then, how important this issue is to my region. I know that employers are just as concerned about the safety of workers as all of us here today are. In fact, I have some important questions to ask on behalf of farmers in my region.

What type of training do inspectors receive? Since 60% of temporary foreign workers are employed in farming, do inspectors receive training on agricultural sector workplaces and related issues?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I'm going to ask Ms. Crescenzi to tell you more about the training inspectors receive. You raise a very important point.

Keep in mind that, when we hire inspectors, we train them internally. During the pandemic, on one hand, we doubled the number of inspectors, but on the other, we were losing 30% of our inspectors and employees annually. That was our attrition rate. That is why I said we were building and flying the plane at the same time. Much of the training is delivered in house.

Mary, do you want to maybe be more specific on the training?

[Mary Crescenzi]

In regard to training our new inspectors, it is initially a four- to six-week program. It covers what is involved in the inspection process, steps that need to be taken to ensure that the proper information is collected, the interconnections and working collaboratively with folks on the ground from other provinces—our provincial colleagues—as well as migrant worker associations and employer associations—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I hate to interrupt witnesses, but I want to know if there is specific training for those inspectors who will be working in the agricultural sector.

[Mary Crescenzi]

Yes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'll give you some examples. Whether it's a lack of training, confusion or lack of understanding of the mandates, there are inspectors who are asking for documents that are no longer up to date. There are inspectors who are asking for documents that are found in other information that the farmer has already provided. There's incoherence in the response depending on whom the employer is dealing with.

Yes, we have to deal with the challenge between federal and provincial, but apparently, over and above what we can understand due to the urgency of the COVID situation, there is not always a clear collaboration in providing directives.

Is there training, or are there any plans for training, specifically for the agricultural sector?

Not in Quebec, but in other parts of Canada, we saw cases of abuse and deaths.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have time for just a very short answer, please.

[Mary Crescenzi]

Yes, there is specific training for the agricultural sector. Each stream has specific training.

In regard to the conditions that are associated with the agricultural employers, every effort is made to work collaboratively across jurisdictions, but that's an area we are strengthening as part of the rebuild strategy.

We've also introduced supplemental training in regard to collecting information on documentation. It has been in regard to agriculture specifically, as well as on the accommodation aspects.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to say a special hello to Ms. Hogan. I'm very happy to have her with us today.

Welcome back to the committee, Ms. Hogan. I hope it will be as positive of an experience as possible, despite the circumstances, obviously.

As Ms. Shanahan and other members have pointed out, temporary foreign workers account for a crucial part of our economy. Political stripes aside, I think we can all agree that we are facing a labour shortage and that temporary foreign workers make an essential contribution to our economy. They are also human beings, and even though they are not Canadian citizens, they have the same basic rights as everyone else. I think we can all agree on that as well.

It's clear from certain reports that inspections were carried out in a bit of a slapdash manner, if I can put it that way. We knew problems existed before, but things got even worse in 2020‑21, despite the additional funding the federal government gave ESDC and Agriculture and Agri‑Food Canada. In light of all that, the situation calls for constructive criticism and feedback, and that is what we hope to provide.

It's a fact that nearly a quarter of the temporary foreign workers who come to Canada work in Quebec, and statistics show that about 73% of agricultural temporary workers in Quebec are employed in the agri-food sector. It's clear, then, that we are talking about key sectors.

Now I'm looking to better understand something, so my questions are for Ms. Hogan.

Does Ms. Hogan know whether virtual inspections are common practice in other departments? If so, I'd like to know why inspections are done virtually. After all, these are workers who are deemed essential to the economy, so they should be able to work on site.

I'd like the Auditor General to talk more about that and about the effectiveness of virtual inspections.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for the question.

The first thing I would say is that the regulations can be very clear. That's what we see here. The rule changes that were introduced to protect the health and safety of temporary workers were very clear. The next thing is instructions that are very clear. In this case, the department had set out very clear instructions for virtual inspections; they were quite detailed, actually. What makes an inspection regime effective, however, is the way in which it is implemented, and that's where we identified gaps.

Have I seen inspections being carried out virtually in other sectors? Yes, but I do know that in-person inspections continued in other sectors.

I want to come back to the basics of an inspection. Inspection decisions must be supported by sufficient and appropriate information, and that was lacking in what we saw. I would also say that the department disregarded the fact that technology could have been leveraged to support virtual inspections.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see.

Can you describe some of the examples you talk about in your report?

[Karen Hogan]

It's hard to assess the situation when information is lacking. For example, in order to conclude that accommodations allow for proper physical distancing, the inspector has to be able to show that beds are at least six feet apart. However, if a photo shows only one bed in a room, when the room actually has other beds in it, it is very difficult to determine whether the accommodations meet the requirements.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That happened.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, that's right. Without concrete evidence, it's difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether employers protected the health and safety of workers and whether the department was right in concluding that employers had taken the necessary steps.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Firstly, you found cases where worker health and safety had not been protected. Second, what I understand from your audit is that the department was claiming that employers were compliant with the requirements without any evidence to support that.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, that's exactly right.