Public Accounts Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Indeed, what I'm speaking to is the functioning of this committee and how this committee addresses the review, analysis and work of parliamentarians. We're trying to improve the work of the government in all of the different areas it is called upon to apply policies that come from the government of the day—from the executive—but have to be operationalized, measured, resourced, budgeted for and then undertaken by public servants.

That is why Mr. Christopherson was so adamant. In fact, he said he didn't want to see ministers here. If I had more time, I would look up the quotes. He said he didn't want to see ministers here, because they can appear at other committees where they're going to talk about policies and so on. He said there are other avenues, but the people he wanted to see at public accounts—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Excuse me—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

—were the officials who are ultimately responsible.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am going to press for relevance a bit.

I appreciate what a previous member, who is no longer in the Parliament and no longer chair of this committee, said.

I will remind the member that this is a witness this committee agreed should be on the witness list. I believe it was passed unanimously by this committee.

I'm going to turn things back over to you, Mrs. Shanahan, but I'm going to point out relevance if you go back to a member who is no longer on this committee, when this committee decided unanimously to call in the minister.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Indeed.

Chair, I'm just recalling what I said at the time, and why having the minister appear—who we have had appear here before—is....

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor] a joke.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes. I guess some members feel it is a joke. I'm sorry to see that.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Order.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor.

Please, everyone, maintain your respect. If you need to stretch your legs, I'll ask that you go outside.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going into this kind of depth on this issue because, as my colleague pointed out, we're going from a letter of invitation to DEFCON 10. That's where we're going on this.

As we have done it with other witnesses here, there's room for the committee to reiterate the request and write another letter.

Chair, you have said yourself there's a reason why we normally cannot compel ministers to come here. It's because they have, of course, very busy schedules. We try as much as possible to work with the ministers' schedules, which I believe the clerk can confirm. Maybe it is simply a matter of that.

The letter from the minister indicated that she was appearing before INAN, where she should rightly appear, on this very same topic on June 3. I can't speak for the minister, but I can see how she could feel that she was answering the call.

I could go further, Chair, but in the interest of coming to ground on something here, I would propose an amendment.

Do we have the wording of the motion? Can the clerk read that out for us?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Let me check with the clerk. I believe it was sent.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay. I just want to see where the—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is that right, Clerk? Okay.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

No, I have not received the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Excuse me. We are sending it right away.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

All right.

We receive all sorts of emails during the meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, we're just waiting for your motion to be distributed, and then Mrs. Shanahan has an amendment to your motion.

Mrs. Shanahan, could you read your amendment?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes. I move as follows: “That the committee request that the Minister of Indigenous Services Canada appear before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts regarding the Auditor General's report on indigenous housing, and that if the minister does not confirm a date on which she intends to appear by May 23, 2024, that the committee...”

The rest is Mr. Desjarlais' motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Would you just repeat it? I heard it, but I'm going to ask you to repeat it. I thought that's what you might do. You're looking to add a couple of lines at the top.

Would you repeat that? I'll ask Mr. Desjarlais to pay careful attention.

Once you've repeated that, I have a generalized question.

Mr. Sorbara, do you have you hand up to speak after this? I know Mr. Desjarlais does. You might as well. You can get back in on that.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Desjarlais next, but, Mrs. Shanahan, could you just read that again and then send it to the clerk?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes. It reads as follows: “That the committee request that the Minister of Indigenous Services Canada appear before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts regarding the Auditor General's report on indigenous housing, and that if the minister does not confirm a date on which she intends to appear by May 23, 2024, that the committee...

We'd then insert the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, that is an amendment to your motion. How do you feel about it? In essence, it's giving the minister two weeks to give us a date.

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Although I appreciate the motion, I believe that the effect of what the member just read as an amendment is the same as the effect of my motion from some weeks ago.

Maybe, Chair, the clerk could read out the date of the original request and the follow-up request. I think the member will see that there's a pattern. It's clear to me. That is why I will reject the amendment. I hope the member can see that we have provided enough time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

As I'm prone to doing, I'm not going to bring the clerk into our discussions. She is in the process of checking when this motion was passed.

Our committee clerk sent the minister the invitation with follow-ups, as the clerk does so well. I asked as well. I'm not going to bring the clerk into this, but she did her job. I also asked about it frequently, and was always told, “I followed up, and I will do so again.”

Do you have the date, by chance?

[The Clerk]

Yes. This was adopted by the committee on April 11—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It was April 11.