Public Accounts Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I don't have my notes in front of me. I'm just looking through my binder. I believe that when the minister is appearing on the 22nd, it is for the estimates. I'm just looking for a confirmation on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Stewart.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Perhaps I could add something to the seriousness of the issue, to Mr. Desjarlais' comment.

I remember that as a former minister of aboriginal affairs in New Brunswick, I had, as you can imagine, 16 first nations all together, but I also had four in my current constituency.

I remember that the chief of one community called me and asked me if I could drive down and see something in his community.

When I got there, I got into the truck with the chief, who was about my own age. He had this picture in his truck. It was a picture of him at the age of about 10 or 11 with four other friends all the same age. They were all deceased except for him, at this point in time, many to suicide. We had a pretty heartfelt conversation about the community and some of the struggles.

Obviously, Jordan's principle is always topical, but in terms of the housing issues in that particular community, this is why the minister of any of these departments related to indigenous affairs should always agree to whatever invitation they're getting. That day I went to a house, and there was mould everywhere. There was mould all over the house. I have chronic asthma, so as soon as I walked into that, I started breathing terribly. You could visibly see that it was black mould. It was everywhere. What was more interesting was that in that household, it would have been suitable for a family of maybe four people, five max, and there were probably 16 or 17 people living in that house that I was aware of, as per the chief.

There were federal programs they were trying to access to fix the mould problem, but the band council couldn't afford it. Their money was stretched to other programs and projects. There was this huge pot of money in the federal government. I forget the exact name of the program, but they couldn't achieve it. The people in the house didn't have the know-how to get rid of all this mould and they had nowhere else to go. The community was already down probably 400 units. This was a big community in the Mi'kmaq territory of New Brunswick.

I just wanted to say that at those times, what I observed really changes everything for me. I think the minister should simply just agree to whatever we're inviting them to, because it's so important.

I just wanted to share that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Your insights on that are always welcome.

Ms. Bradford, you had asked for a turn.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to clarify the thread, I'm responding to Mr. Desjarlais.

The reason I raised the question with the chair was that I was wanting him to share with the members of this committee what reason, if any, the minister gave that she was unavailable. That's why I raised the question.

Typically, I believe, the normal process of this committee would be to review the report and bring in the AG with department officials, as this committee has historically done. As well, we usually deal with deputy ministers, not ministers. Even our chair has mentioned that it is irregular for us to ask ministers to appear. Normally it is the deputy minister who appears before the public accounts committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor again.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Ms. Bradford, I appreciate that. I hope you can appreciate the severity of the Auditor General's call to do more. She demanded that we have a level of accountability that is beyond the regular statutes of this committee.

Although I appreciate the comment on the regular processes that we would take under an audit, such as having the deputy minister of transport talk to us about some rail ties that were incomplete in the last fiscal year, I want to press upon you the urgency. If I haven't already, and if the auditors general over the last 20 years haven't already, I hope you can understand the severity.

Mr. Stewart just submitted a very legitimate and very sad reality of the state of first nations housing. This is an emergency. It's life or death. That's what we're talking about. He has asthma. Imagine an indigenous child with asthma right now in that house with all that mould. I don't know about you, but I have many people in my life who I would not want to see living in a deplorable state like that. This is the worst aspect of our country.

I've spoken many times about how I'm firmly a believer that the lack of action in this work amounts to a genocide. If we do not do something, Ms. Bradford.... I am begging you to see, with clarity and with humanity, how important this work is. It's unfortunate that the minister hasn't appeared. The deputy minister herself has spoken about the fact that she as well has her hands tied. We need a level of accountability. It's been decades and decades of sitting on hands. The last three auditors general have said that this is beyond unacceptable.

Can we please have unanimous support to see a motion that would ensure that this work could get done? I would move that the standing committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, I'm going to pause you. You sent me a note asking for information. I have asked the clerk to send all members the information.

What you have is the draft of a previous one. You will need to work on it with better language. That is just a template for you to work with, as you can see. Ms. Bradford would like the floor, so I can give you a few minutes. If you're still working on it and there are no speakers, I will suspend, because I see your intent.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. Desjarlais, I don't want you making this personal, as though I'm uncaring. I would just like to confirm that I was merely raising a question: Why did the minister say that she was unavailable? I think that was a fair thing to do.

Of course I care. I don't think there's a person on this committee who is not alarmed and not aware of the severity of the situation indicated in the AG's report. That's not what's in question here. I just want to clarify that I feel it's unfair that you would construe that I or I think anyone else on this committee does not take this situation very seriously. Of course it is serious.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'm not seeing any more speakers, but I get the drift that we're....

Mr. Desjarlais, I was going to suspend for just a few minutes, because you're right in the middle of this debate, and I think you need a few minutes to craft your language.

I'll suspend for three to five minutes—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm sorry, Chair. Can I make a last comment in response to Ms. Bradford?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. When we come back from suspension, you will also get the first turn.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I just want to make certain, Ms. Bradford, that you understand that this is not intended to be personal, and I apologize if you feel personal offence. I hope you can understand the balance of temperament I must have, since it's a severe issue for me personally, and it's very difficult to imagine a scenario in which this level of accountability could be sidetracked.

With respect to offending you, I apologize, but for the purposes of summoning the minister, I believe we can get support.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good. That's very good of you, Mr. Desjarlais.

I will suspend for three to five minutes, so don't go far from this room.

This meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting back to order.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I've spoken many times to the immense urgency that indigenous housing presents to communities across our country. It's clear through audits going back as far as 30 years ago on the commitments that were made by governments, in addition to the fact that the Auditor General has confirmed that many of the results haven't hit their targets and that indigenous people continue to suffer deplorable living conditions, that it amounts to an emergency.

Because of those reasons, Mr. Chair, I'd like to move a motion:

That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts report to the House that the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North has refused to testify before the committee on matters relating to Report 2, Housing in First Nations Communities, of the 2024 Reports 2 to 4 of the Auditor General of Canada, and that the committee recommends that the House order the member for Thunder Bay—Superior North to appear before the committee on a date and time to be determined by this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is so moved. I have a speaking list, Mr. Desjarlais, so I will turn to that.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

It is difficult for the interpreters when they do not have the motion. I congratulate them—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

—but I am not sure I understood well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right, then.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Can we give the interpreters a hard copy, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, just a minute.

Also, I would like Madam Clerk to read the motion, when she is ready.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

After that, I have a speaking list as well.

Mr. Desjarlais, perhaps you would put your hand down. You can put it back up right away, if you like. Thank you. That's helpful. It just resets my brain.

The clerk will read the motion in French as well.