Evidence of meeting #122 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
As an Individual
Yes, sure.
I've gone to committee on three separate occasions before now. As the committee's inquiries have progressed, they've asked for very precise, detailed information, so it behooved me to be prepared for these types of questions. In order to do that, I needed access to my emails to refresh my memory and make sure the committee was getting the most accurate information possible to continue its deliberations.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
In an earlier answer as to your responsibilities as president of the CBSA, you mentioned that you also oversee sample audits.
As an Individual
No. I said that the agency would perform sample audits of invoices as part of the financial management process. I think the CFO testified to that to you a couple of weeks ago in terms of the sampling they did of invoices around ArriveCAN.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Why were you not rehired for your previous committee appearances on October 24, 2023, and in 2022?
As an Individual
That's a good question.
I probably, in retrospect, should have sought that support from the agency to prepare for those appearances.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
You mentioned support from the agency. Could you elaborate a bit?
As an Individual
I mean access to my emails to get a correct record of events for the committee's use.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
During your time as president of the CBSA, do you recall the agency providing support to past or current employees to aid their preparation for appearances at parliamentary committees?
As an Individual
I don't recall that specifically, but it's not an uncommon practice, as Ms. O’Gorman pointed out the other day.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
You're at zero. If you have a quick question, I'll allow it, but you are spot-on at that.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Okay. I'm just going to leave it, then.
Thank you, Mr. Ossowski.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have six minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Ossowski, you're a managing director at PwC. Do you know many clients who would be willing to pay you $500 to read your old emails? I don't know any myself, and I built my career at PwC.
How can you believe that taxpayers want to pay you $500 to read your old emails? Taxpayers paid for that. Does that seem normal to you?
As an Individual
My best explanation of that would be that as a government employee, I was required to submit hours to the agency. I submitted one day's worth of hours, and they chose to give me a paycheque.
You can probably best get the answer on the rules around that from the agency.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Why didn't you refuse to take the $500? Given that you're a PricewaterhouseCoopers employee, I don't think you need it.
Why did you agree to an exchange? Was it to protect the CBSA's reputation? Were you asked for anything in return?
As an Individual
It was not to get anything in exchange. My initial response was that I did not want to get paid. They asked for my hours and they paid me. I'm happy to pay the money back.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I think that this would be a good start because taxpayers shouldn't have to pay you to prepare for a committee appearance. Since the ArriveCAN issue occurred under your watch, it's normal for you to have to answer questions.
My first questions are on that subject. According to The Globe and Mail, Botler AI submitted to the CBSA, specifically to Mr. Utano, warnings about misconduct involving GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix on two occasions, in September 2021 and November 2022. You were still there in September 2021.
When did you first hear of the complaints being made by Botler AI?
As an Individual
The first time Botler made a complaint that I was aware of was during the committee proceedings. It happened after I left the agency, in the fall of 2022.
This is well-trodden ground at the government operations committee.
As an Individual
To be clear, I received no allegations from Botler during my tenure as president.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Do you think it's normal that complaints that later led to an RCMP investigation didn't reach your ears while you were the CBSA president? Do you think that's normal and that you were doing your job as head of the CBSA if you weren’t even aware of such serious complaints?
As an Individual
As I mentioned, the complaint didn't happen during my tenure. Ms. O'Gorman received the first complaints and allegations in the fall of 2022. I had retired. If something had happened during my tenure, I would have investigated it and done whatever was required.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Yet, according to our information, the initial complaints made to Mr. Utano were submitted in September 2021. You were still on the job, according to The Globe and Mail. It seems strange that you didn't know and that everything happened after you left.
I'd like to ask you another question on this matter. During Mr. MacDonald's testimony before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, we heard that Mr. Doan was the person in your office who chose GC Strategies, and that you were the person who put Deloitte, a PwC competitor, in the penalty box.
Why did you rule out Deloitte?