Public Accounts Committee on May 16th, 2024

[John Ossowski]

You had two questions there.

Mr. Utano testified at committee that the email he received from Botler in 2021 was about a pay issue, and they resolved it at his level. Nothing was brought to my attention.

With respect to Mr. Doan's testimony on the choice of GC Strategies, he made it clear that he was offered a choice between a technical, managed service, outsourcing option that Deloitte had put forward and something else that apparently had no reference to GC Strategies on it. I would refer you back to Mr. Doan's testimony.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm asking you the question, since Mr. Doan said, when he left your office, that Deloitte had been ruled out. Why was Deloitte ruled out? Above all, as the CBSA president, how could you not know or care about the details of complaints from subcontractors such as Botler AI, but care about a contract being awarded to GC Strategies rather than Deloitte?

There seems to be a gap in decision‑making with regard to two very important decisions. On the one hand, a supplier submitted a major complaint. On the other hand, a major non‑competitive contract would ultimately be awarded to GC Strategies, a two‑person company that provides no actual services.

Once again, why were you involved in a decision about that contract? Furthermore, why was Deloitte ruled out?

[John Ossowski]

Well, I'm not sure what your reference is to Mr. Doan's leaving my office, but I've stated on multiple occasions at other committee appearances that Mr. Doan never corresponded with me or provided me with any...asked me for any advice on anything to do with the contracts or the options with this, so I don't.... The testimony is there. The departmental records have been provided. There are thousands of pages of ATIP the committees have access to. I was not involved in the vendor selection process, and nothing was brought to my attention about allegations of wrongdoing by Botler during my tenure.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So, only Mr. Utano, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Doan knew how GC Strategies was selected. You were never made aware of anything related to the selection of GC Strategies for the ArriveCAN file.

[John Ossowski]

I was not involved in the vendor selection process. There's no record that I was involved in the vendor selection process. Mr. Doan was offered a technical choice, in terms of a managed service by Deloitte or a staff augmentation approach, and he's testified to that. I believe you have all the documents around that. I was not involved in the vendor selection process in any way, shape or form.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up is Ms. Blaney. It's nice to see you again. You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

It's nice to have some time with you, Mr. Ossowski.

I think the biggest challenge, of course, is that for Canadians, who are living through so much in a time of inflation and a cost-of-living crisis, seeing all of these resources go out the door has really made a huge impact on them. I think of how a lot of money, like $60 million in profits, would have made a huge difference in multiple ridings across the country to help people alleviate food insecurity, for one example.

This committee heard valuable testimony, in an earlier meeting with the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, that frontline officers were never consulted on the development of the app or any of its 70 updates. This really concerns me, especially as someone who works closely with people out on the front line, because they often have the most effective solutions since they're the ones doing the work. I know that my colleague Blake Desjarlais also brought up this issue with the current president, Ms. Erin O'Gorman, but since you were the decision-maker during the development of that, can you tell us why it is that frontline border officers weren't consulted for this app development?

[John Ossowski]

I think it's important to remember that, when these changes happened, they were as a result of public health orders or orders in council, so there was a necessary confidentiality until they came into force: It was usually a very short time period, often less than 24 hours. Before any changes happened—and while we certainly would have taken into account any feedback from the front line with respect to what was working, what wasn't and how to make it more useful—we were not ever able to disclose in advance what the upcoming changes were going to be, aside from within that very short window, to make sure they were aware if a change in posture or some change in process was required.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's interesting to me. It's fascinating to me that there was no process in place. I understand what you're saying about the confidentiality and all of the requirements, but for me, looking at the fact that there were 70 updates, it seems like there was no process during this time when you actually selected some frontline workers to help guide you. The background of this app failed again and again—it was all over the media—so I'm just wondering, is there no process internally that you have whereby you actually work with frontline folks, who deliver the service and are often the ones who can give you the most effective information? There was no strategizing internally about how to do that work in what, I understand, was a dire circumstance. However, I would also say that during a dire circumstance is when you want to get it right the most, and it doesn't seem like that was, in any way, a priority.

[John Ossowski]

Mr. Chair, I would say that we had regular meetings with the union. We were in constant contact with our frontline officers and the regions during the pandemic. Anything that wasn't working, we tried to take into account, to make sure the border process would be as smooth as possible.

I would remind you that the officers themselves were vulnerable here. Especially in the very early days, when little was known about how the disease was transmitted and there were paper processes, we were very concerned with the front line and the personal protective posture that they had as they did their duties to ensure the flow of people who were entering back into the country.

We did our best to consult with them, but at the end of the day, there were very tight timelines and, because of necessary confidentiality around public health orders or orders in council, we weren't always able to do it as fulsomely as we might have wanted to.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay.

We also heard from Mr. Weber, the president of the union, that the CBSA was short-staffed by about 2,000 to 3,000 workers prior to the beginning of the pandemic, which gave way to the need for an application in the first place, and which I think tells you that if you're not working on the ground when crisis strikes, then you really have a problem. This is devastating to understand, so it gave way to the application in the first place, and the funds allocated to the ArriveCAN app could have hired 500 officers instead.

I understand that we were in the middle of a pandemic, but I'm wondering if there's any reflection on what happened prior to the pandemic and how not having enough people trained and ready created this crisis in which we've seen a huge amount of taxpayer dollars go to someone out there who's walking away with a huge amount of profit when the app didn't even work and we could have seen officers on the ground, providing services and doing it safely, if there had been planning put into place. I'm just wondering if there's any reflection on making sure you listen to the union, and that when there are not enough people to do the job, that is rectified.

[John Ossowski]

I would say that we would hire as many border services officers as we could afford to. It's as simple as that. We're always trying to rebalance the workforce in terms of retirements, attrition, workload changes and volumes, but to be clear, the purpose of the app was not to replace officers. The purpose of the app was to collect health care information from individuals so that it could be passed along to the provincial authorities and for the Public Health Agency to use in understanding how this virus was circulating around the globe. They're mutually exclusive in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Beginning our second round, Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Current CBSA president Ms. O'Gorman and suspended or on medical leave Minh Doan, a senior executive at CBSA, have been caught repeatedly lying to this committee and other committees.

In fact, the RCMP are investigating currently Minh Doan's allegations that he deleted purposely tens of thousands of emails over a four-year period. Are you aware of that, sir?

[John Ossowski]

I'm aware of what's been said at committee about this, but I have no other details.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did you ever engage in that type of activity? When you had access to your own emails after leaving the agency, did you delete some of your emails?

[John Ossowski]

I've always honoured whatever information management and document management principles were imposed on me by the government, so no, I have not inappropriately deleted any emails.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Any and all emails relating to your communications with Minh Doan or your communications with GC Strategies or anything in relation to ArriveCAN or Botler AI would be preserved at the CBSA. Is that what you're saying, sir?

[John Ossowski]

I've reviewed my emails, and I have no evidence that anything has been changed or removed, from what I remember.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Now, let's end this speculation once and for all. There's fairly clear evidence on the record at this committee and other committees that it was in fact Minh Doan who finally made the decision to select GC Strategies. Do you agree with that?

[John Ossowski]

I would go back to Mr. Doan's testimony, and he said he was offered a technical decision—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. Doan's testimony is rife with inconsistencies and outright lies. There is evidence from other witnesses, including written evidence, that clearly supports that there was one person who was in charge at the time at CBSA. It was Minh Doan who held that position and who ultimately selected GC Strategies.

I'm asking you, sir, whether or not you agree with that.

[John Ossowski]

I do not agree with that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That's fine.

The RCMP, as I said, are investigating this as well as a number of other issues surrounding CBSA and other agencies. Have the RCMP contacted you, sir?

[John Ossowski]

No, they have not.