Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2024

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Very well. You’re telling me, then, that the online broadcast is working correctly.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I have no idea.

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

Yes, I can hear you.

[Chief Sidney Peters]

Yes, I can hear you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We can look into it later. For now, we will proceed.

You have about five minutes remaining, Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Haymond, how do we make sure we get a co-created housing strategy that takes indigenous expertise into account?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I think that the solution and the answer really rest with the fact that the Assembly of First Nations did a tremendous amount of work over the last number of years to identify what those needs are across this country. What we haven't had an opportunity to do yet is to sit down with government to discuss how we can go forward in addressing those needs, because surely there is a need for continued investment for social and affordable housing. However, as I mentioned earlier, we also need to take into consideration that there are other aspects of housing that we feel need the investment, and that, in terms of private home ownership, is absolutely an essential part of discussion.

It's fundamentally key that the Government of Canada sit down with first nations, whether it be through the Assembly of First Nations or inviting chiefs, like the chief from Treaty No. 6, to come, represent his constituents, sit down and work with us to find a solution. Clearly, government is not going to be able to pony up $135 billion to meet our housing needs, so we need a combination of government investment and private financing, and we absolutely, at some point, need banks to stand up, take a chance, put their risk aversion aside and invest in our communities. Indigenous financial institutions are prepared to do that work if the banks won't do so, but we need to have that conversation so that we can find a solution to the overall housing needs that exist in our community, from shelters right through the whole continuum to home ownership and also the importance of renovation.

I also need to talk about the fact that, look, it's not simply housing. If you give us $135 billion to build housing, we're not having the right conversation, because there's a significant amount of infrastructure that is required. Lot development, water treatment plants and sewer treatment plants are all part of the equation, so we need a fulsome approach, and we can only get that through direct dialogue and discussion with the rights and the stakeholders, like first nations.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand that the Yänonhchia’ initiative allows for developing an approach by and for indigenous people that leverages their knowledge of housing construction, because that’s often what is lacking when it’s time to build new homes, especially in more remote communities.

You will therefore be able to offer this service. We can think of very concrete things, such as architectural services, drawing and specification services, as well as actual housing construction services. In a sense, you can offer a fulsome solution to support communities, help them achieve very real results and, in so doing, reduce the housing construction gap in communities.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Yes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for your answer. It has the virtue of being clear.

Since it is an investment fund, the Yänonhchia’ initiative includes some risk taking. However, we know that our society is increasingly risk-averse. One of the problematic aspects in indigenous communities is that few insurance companies finance or support housing construction initiatives.

What solutions could be implemented so that we can not only invest in housing construction, but also offer insurance?

Furthermore, since our capitalist society currently operates on the basis of profits, could any generated profits be reinvested into indigenous projects? Is that part of the philosophy of financial services by and for indigenous peoples, like those offered by Yänonhchia’?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Yänonhchia’ offers an opportunity to diversify the housing offerings that first nations have. Currently, most first nations wait for our funding allocation from CMHC and ISC. We move forward and develop housing plans. Yänonhchia’ takes the burden from the band council of having to be responsible for guaranteeing and managing every single loan.

You know, in the non-indigenous world, people are granted mortgages based on their credit strength. That doesn't exist in first nations communities. We have many members who have great credit and credit strength but struggle to secure a mortgage on reserve. It can be because the band does not have the financial capacities to guarantee the level of loans required. There are limited options, and we need a full spectrum of options.

Yänonhchia’ allows for that individual to be recognized on his credit strength. That relationship is between the financial institution and the individual. The band council plays a minor role in terms of ensuring that in the event of default—in Quebec, we have had none in all the years of delivering the program—there is a remedy in place.

So yes, I agree that the world is risk-averse, but I think the biggest risk we face is that we continue to do the same thing over and over. In five, 10 or 15 years, the Auditor General comes back and reports that the same outcomes are occurring.

The biggest risk is the risk of not doing anything at all.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

The next one to take the floor is Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Tansi to the grand chief of Treaty 6. It's good to see you, Cody. I hope you're doing well. I'm definitely jealous that you're in Oilers country right now. I'm here in Ottawa, and I'm cheering on the Oilers all the way over here.

However, I know that we have important business to get to, so I'll speak directly to you, Grand Chief, just to clarify some of the damning information that was presented by the Auditor General.

I'll quote from her speech, as a matter of fact:

This is the fourth time since 2003 that we have raised concerns about housing in First Nations communities, and—20 years later—many of these concerns persist. Despite these audits, we found that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have made little progress in supporting First Nations to improve housing conditions in their communities.

We also hear very often in this place, Grand Chief, that there's a housing crisis, albeit this housing crisis in first nations communities has been a long-standing one. Do you want to comment on how long and generational this crisis has been?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

Hay hay for that.

It's good to see you, Blake. From Oilers country, I hope all is well.

Yes, it's been going on for decades: I would honestly say since the inception—or deception—of our treaty. I think the data that's being collected within CMHC and ISC is outdated. I just think the whole system is broken when it comes to the fiduciary responsibility of the Crown.

I think the real solution is finding sustainable funding and increasing the standard of living when it comes to the homes that are being built—not just the cookie-cutter style of homes. I hear the other ogemas—the other chiefs—who have been on. There's the material aspect of the homes when it comes to climate change as well, and the energy efficiency. There's so much to go on about.

I know that we're not going to solve all of this today, but I want to stress that we're not looking for a handout. We're looking for a hand up and a way to collaborate and give advice from an indigenous lens on what we're facing and the reality of having a four-bedroom or maybe a three-bedroom house built. You have 14 people living in that home. You have a cistern, a septic tank that is over capacity, and the cheapest materials.

Even with the rapid housing initiative, I think a lot of nations are being denied that funding. I think us being at the table, finding solutions together and giving you a broader perspective when it comes to the shortage of infrastructure.... Even with the funding for mortgages on reserve, we're working on a rent-to-own model right now within our nation. Just to solve our housing crisis in my nation right now we're looking at approximately just under $300 million. That includes $56 million in infrastructure. That's only putting a dent into our housing crisis. We don't have enough land. We're short approximately 486 homes. That would put a dent in half that cost.

It's not only my nation as the grand chief of Treaty 6. Many nations are secluded and don't have the capacity and a proper standard for building homes. We want to contribute. Yes, there may be a lack of tradespeople, but how are we ever going to learn if we're not given the opportunity to invest in our people and to learn those skilled trades as well? We want to contribute.

It's also about some of the houses. I'll just speak to this, and I'll be frank. Some of the models that CMHC has rolled out—slab homes that are handicap accessible; we have homes that have wooden foundations—are just unacceptable. I really appreciate the conversation around introducing a different catalogue, but I'm not one who lives by the status quo. I really want to be a catalyst for creating change and increasing that standard of living for our people, because we deserve it. We shouldn't be living this way.

Time and time again, it's just spinning wheels that isn't going to get us anywhere. Initially, I think, if we were to come up with a better process or have our voices heard to that extent, I think contributing in that fashion where.... We have to step up too. We've got to pay a portion to a certain extent, and there is a fiduciary responsibility of diversifying and not going based off data that is outdated.

The system is broken. If we want to fix it, we've got to put in the work.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that.

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

We may have a model that's coming down the pipe for you guys over there as well in Ottawa.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I think you're right. We need a fundamental change in how this work is operating.

The treaty—a significant document—commits the Crown to working directly with Treaty 6. In many ways, we haven't seen evidence of that. The issues we're seeing and that are persisting in communities are evidence of that.

I just want to turn to another topic. We hauled CMHC in here, and I, as you might know, really criticized them in relation to the use of outdated census information. They promised me at that time. They said, “Don't worry, Mr. Desjarlais, we are going to meet with the partners in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and we're going to update the formula.”

I want to ask you directly. Did CMHC reach out to you to talk about the money that they short-changed you?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

No.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

On the evidence that CMHC hasn't done that, you've mentioned that you yourself.... Your community at Enoch is funded only $184,000 a year?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

Yes. That is correct.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

That's not nearly the percentage required.

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

We have to take our own-source funding to create our housing model out here. It's not getting any better, and we mortgage just like every other Canadian, through CMHC. That's the funding we have to work through. It's very tough.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is that in any way, shape or form, in your mind, the spirit and intent of the treaty?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

The spirit and intent of our treaty was fifty-fifty. We were to share, in collaboration with the settlers, in the abundance of wealth that our Turtle Island carried in Mother Earth.

I don't see that happening. That's frustrating, guys. That's the biggest request I get from our members. We have the second-largest indigenous population in my backyard. I border the city of Edmonton, and it's not getting any easier.