Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cody Thomas  Grand Chief, Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations
Sidney Peters  Glooscap First Nation
Brendan Mitchell  Regional Chief, Newfoundland, Assembly of First Nations
Lance Haymond  Co-chair, National Chief Committee on Housing and Infrastructure, Assembly of First Nations
Michael Wernick  Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 128 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please keep in mind the preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Again, as a reminder, only use the black, approved earpieces that you see connected, or that are in front of you. Remember that, at the start of these meetings, the earpieces are not plugged in. Of course, plug them in if you need them, and keep them away from all microphones at all times. If you're not using your earpiece but have it plugged in, place it face down on the sticker on the table to your right or possibly to your left.

We have some quick housekeeping before we begin.

Your subcommittee met on Monday, June 3, 2024 to consider the business of the committee and agreed to make the following recommendations. The subcommittee is also meeting again today at 6:30 in light of the audits that were tabled today. It decided, at this point, that, regarding the committee's study of “Report 1: ArriveCAN” among the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party each prioritize one remaining witness and submit this information to the clerk. That email has been sent. The reason for this is that each of them had put forward a witness, and that witness either declined or was unavailable. It also decided that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would be invited to appear on Thursday, June 13, 2024 from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.

Does the committee wish to concur with the first report of the subcommittee in this Parliament? I'm looking for a yes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Very good. That makes the clerk exceptionally happy.

As a reminder, going forward, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is commencing consideration of the 2024 report 2 of the Auditor General of Canada. Selected from the 2024 reports 2 to 4, and entitled “Housing and First Nations Communities,” this report was referred to the committee on Tuesday, March 19, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Assembly of First Nations, we have Chief Lance Haymond and Chief Brendan Mitchell. I have a note that he is the Assembly of First Nations regional chief for Newfoundland.

Thank you both for being here today.

From the Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations, Grand Chief Cody Thomas is joining us by video conference.

Can you hear us okay, Chief Thomas?

3:40 p.m.

Cody Thomas Grand Chief, Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations

Yes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Very good.

From the Glooscap First Nation, we have Chief Sidney Peters.

Chief, can you hear me okay so far?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Sidney Peters Glooscap First Nation

Yes, I can.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Great. Thank you.

Before each group is given five minutes for remarks, I have a request from Chief Mitchell to open up this committee hearing with a prayer, and I'm inclined to grant that.

Mr. Mitchell, I'll turn things over to you. Then we'll get on with our opening statements.

3:40 p.m.

Brendan Mitchell Regional Chief, Newfoundland, Assembly of First Nations

Thank you very much, Chair.

Please stand, everybody.

Creator, we give thanks for this beautiful day in Ottawa and this opportunity for us to come together in the spirit of friendship, kinship, community, collaboration and reconciliation.

Creator, we ask for your guidance as we make our deliberations today, say what we have to say and hear questions from our committee here.

Creator, this is an important conversation today, as many of our communities struggle with the basics of conditions that many people in Canada enjoy.

Creator, we ask that you help us with this cause, encourage everyone here to do what we can and endeavour to create a better tomorrow for indigenous people in our communities.

Creator, we ask, also, that you encourage us to become the embodiment of our seven sacred teachings and to always show humility, honesty, respect, truth, courage, wisdom and, most importantly, love for one another.

Msit no'kmaq.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

We will now begin with our opening remarks.

I'll go to the first one on the list and ask Chief Haymond from the Assembly of First Nations to begin.

You have five minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Chief Lance Haymond Co-chair, National Chief Committee on Housing and Infrastructure, Assembly of First Nations

Good afternoon. I am Chief Lance Haymond from Kebaowek First Nation. I have the housing and infrastructure portfolio for the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador. I also co-chair the chiefs committee on housing and infrastructure at AFN. I recently accepted the position of director general of Yänonhchia’, an innovative housing finance initiative that provides mortgages on reserve without band or government guarantees.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we are on the traditional territory of my first nation—

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Chief Haymond, we'll come right back to you. I apologize for this.

I assume we have an issue with interpretation. I will keep speaking until our Bloc colleague hears the words in French.

I'm sorry, Chief. We just want to make sure that this is coming through in the two official languages.

I see a thumbs-up.

Madame Sinclair-Desgagné, can you hear me in French? All right.

Please continue, Chief Haymond.

3:45 p.m.

Co-chair, National Chief Committee on Housing and Infrastructure, Assembly of First Nations

Chief Lance Haymond

I'd like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin nation. We're always happy to welcome you on our territory to conduct our business.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Chief, excuse me for one second. Could I ask you to slow down just a touch, to help with the interpretation?

3:45 p.m.

Co-chair, National Chief Committee on Housing and Infrastructure, Assembly of First Nations

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

Co-chair, National Chief Committee on Housing and Infrastructure, Assembly of First Nations

Chief Lance Haymond

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share our point of view on the Auditor General's report on housing in first nations communities.

It's no surprise that we read in the Auditor General's report that the housing problem in first nations communities persists, despite what has been raised in various reports for over 20 years and even though housing is a basic, fundamental human right. The first message at the very beginning of the report repeats exactly what we have been conveying for a long time: Improving housing for first nations is vital for their physical, mental and economic well-being. That's because housing plays a fundamental role in any society. I'm a firm believer that it's pretty hard for me, as a chief, to address the social ills of my community members when everybody's worried about having a roof over their head.

The housing crisis in first nations communities in Quebec and Labrador has been well documented for nearly 25 years. We have reliable data that indicates, among other things, that 10,000 housing units should be added to our housing stock of 15,000 over a five-year period to make up for the accumulated backlog, particularly due to overcrowding, population growth, migration of members who potentially want to live in their community, and the replacement of condemned units. Our figures also indicate that 8,000 housing units require renovation or repairs.

The analyses, carried out over a long period of time, indicate that when the federal government invests in first nations housing beyond its regular budgets, the effect is felt well in our communities. Of course, as needs continue to grow, the increase is growing at a slower pace. This leads me to link with recommendation 2.26 of the Auditor General's report, which reads as follows:

Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in collaboration with First Nations, should develop and implement a strategy to close the housing gap by 2030 that outlines how they will coordinate their efforts, identifies needs and required funding, and establishes measurable targets for tracking progress.

We believe that first nations can play an important role in closing the housing gap, not only in the development of a strategy but also in the financial framework that results from it. For example, we know that there is a continuation of needs in the community that goes from shelters to social housing to private home ownership. Private housing is precisely a model that a larger proportion of our members could certainly opt for if the opportunities were present. There is a potential in this area that deserves to be further developed. First nations and their financial institutions could then play a significant role in eliminating the housing gap. Yänonhchia' Indigenous Housing Finance Network is one of those opportunities and is a part of the solution.

For this, we need the commitment of our partners to strengthen the capacities, to take direction and to help us secure capital. There are good practices in this area. We have piloted and have been delivering this initiative to Quebec first nations for years. We know that there is a need for this nationally. The NACCA network and the indigenous financial institutions are the right vehicles to help address this issue.

Precisely on the question of capacities, recommendation 2.46 of the Auditor General's report fits perfectly with our regional strategy. Strengthening skills and capacities is a crucial aspect of any action plan aimed at obtaining better housing results in our communities, because they often have to deal with complex situations of great need, which are increasing in the context of continued underfunding.

Recommendation 2.60 of the report refers to ISC's transfer initiative. You know the housing situation in first nations communities. The report is very revealing on this subject. Yes, we want more governance by first nations in housing, but not at any cost.

Current conditions—notably, the accumulated backlog and the programs as designed—are not favourable to a transfer of responsibilities. There are prerequisites that must be met for first nations to embrace and thrive under such a change. Any reform, modernization and transfer initiative must be accompanied by upstream funding that is sufficient, predictable and recurring, not based solely on current funding envelopes.

Thank you for the invitation and for listening to me. I'd be happy to answer any questions following the other presenters' presentations.

Meegwetch.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you, Chief Haymond.

I'll turn now to Chief Mitchell.

You have the floor for about five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell

Thank you very much.

I hope I can do it in five minutes. I'll do my best. I was actually coming here expecting to have half an hour, so I wasn't too well informed on how much time I had, but here it is.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Chief Mitchell, I'll give you a little hint. Try to keep it to five minutes, and, believe me, there are all kinds of people in this room who will be asking you questions to fill in some of those 30 minutes.

I'll pass the floor over to you.

3:50 p.m.

Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell

That's great. Thank you, Chair.

My name is Brendan Mitchell. I am the Assembly of First Nations regional chief for Newfoundland.

In my role at the Assembly of First Nations, I chair the management committee, but I'm also a portfolio holder and chair of the chiefs' committee on housing and infrastructure. There, we also talk about water and homelessness.

I'm honoured to be here with you today, and I acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I always enjoy coming to Ottawa. We're here today, Chief Lance and I and those online, with an opportunity to speak to those who I believe are some significant people in this country in terms of helping us, hopefully, with the conditions we have in our communities.

Having housing, water, highways, community buildings, utilities and reliable Internet are things that many Canadians take for granted. I was one of those Canadians, living in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, where we have an abundance of all these things. I can still go to a salmon river and fish and scoop up a cup of water out of a river and drink without fear of contamination or getting sick. We've been blessed in many ways to be in that part of the world, but for many people in our communities, these items are not readily available, and they lack those conditions enjoyed by most Canadians.

For first nations, chasing or closing the infrastructure gap is among the most ambitious, significant and overdue commitments that the Government of Canada has made.

It was disheartening that the Auditor General's report on housing in first nations communities highlighted a distressing and persistent pattern of failure on the part of the federal government to address first nations housing needs. I'm deeply troubled by the Auditor General's findings and the government's lack of progress and ability to effectively address the ongoing crisis of unsafe and inadequate housing in first nations in this country.

The Auditor General's report reaffirms what first nations have been saying about the housing crisis for decades. That is, the federal government is failing to meet its housing obligations to first nations. As the Auditor General points out, Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the two government organizations responsible for first nations housing, have made no meaningful improvement in first nations housing conditions since 2015.

The Auditor General's report has made it clear that the Government of Canada is falling short on its own deadline to close the gap by 2030. First nations deserve more than failed promises. Just recently, I was interviewed by APTN, and they asked me about the federal budget and the Auditor General's report. They said, “Chief Mitchell, what's the likelihood of closing the gap by 2030?” I said, “It's not going to happen. It can't happen.” In fact, what I said—and I'll share it with you—was that my view is that by 2030 the gap will widen.

We have a lot of work to do.

The Auditor General's report really claims that the solution begins with dedicated long-term funding investments for first nations housing, which budget 2024 has failed to provide. I restated my concerns and opinions again in a press conference held here on Parliament Hill, together with National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak and some other chiefs, right after the budget announcement, of course, and the commentary by the Auditor General.

This is a tough situation that we face.

The AFN collaborated with industry experts and over 400 first nations to co-develop a landmark report alongside Indigenous Services Canada that estimates the national capital and operational investments needed from the Government of Canada to fulfill its mandate to close the first nations infrastructure gap by 2030. There was a lot of work done in preparing the report on where we are.

How are we going to get there by 2030? Again, my view is that we're not going to get there. Specifically, in terms of housing in first nations communities, the report points to a gap of $135 billion based on data in 2023. Again, the gap will only continue to grow until decisive investments are made.

Better housing enables access to employment, wealth and positive physical and mental health. I'm a big believer in the education of our young people in our communities, not only in Newfoundland and Labrador but across the country. Having better housing may result or could result in a better outcome. Young people have a better opportunity to become educated and to create opportunities for themselves and, eventually, their families.

The opposite of doing that, of course, is the situation we find today. Many young people are leaving their communities and their homes because they don't like the housing situation they face or they don't like the community situation they're involved in. Where do they end up? They end up in our larger urban centres, often on the street, homeless, in trouble and sometimes incarcerated, and yes, sometimes the ultimate situation they face is death.

Personally, I believe that having a solid home base with cultural, physical and financial supports is where we need to be in this country to change the situation that we have with young indigenous people today. We get some of this through better housing.

The Auditor General's report called for a fundamental shift in how federal programs and policies are developed. This shift is urgently needed to drive significant progress, meaning that federal housing policies must be fully co-developed with the AFN and first nations.

Federal budget 2024 fell short of addressing the urgent and long-term needs of first nations in Canada.

I recognize that investments have been made in the last few years toward closing the socio-economic gap between first nations and the rest of Canada. Gaps still persist and are widening in critical areas like housing and infrastructure.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Chief Mitchell, I'm going to ask you to wind it down now, if you could, please.

3:55 p.m.

Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell

Thank you very much.

These investments are not just financial commitments; they are critical steps toward fulfilling Canada's fiduciary obligations to first nations and addressing historical inequities to ensure the health, safety and prosperity of first nations people.

Yesterday I had an opportunity to make a presentation to five ministers and three parliamentary secretaries at the Shaw Centre here in Ottawa. I gave them an analogy. I said to consider an apple being eaten. We say that an apple is eaten one bite at a time. We have a large apple in front of us right now, an extremely large one, and we're not going to eat it with little bites. We need some big bites, and we need investment in big bites to try to improve the situation, especially if we're still going to talk about a target of 2030.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Chief Mitchell, that is a perfect place for me to pause. I am sure that people are going to come back and ask you questions.

3:55 p.m.

Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell

Thank you, everyone.